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U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline, study finds

reuters.com

131–140 of 264 posts

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline, study finds

#131
post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was not a quote. No citation is possible. Is there a reason for this bad faith participation?

I am not the poster you are replying to but calling that post “bad faith participation” surprised me. Stopping ethanol production will lower demand for corn so it is conceivable that this would reduce the marginal value in producing corn and cause some amount of corn production to become worth less than the alternatives (like planting different crops or less intense farming of corn field, etc.) To me at least, not be…

See, your comment comes in good faith. You clearly put thought into and offer something that allows continuation of the conversation.

"Citation needed" is a purposeful attempt to dead end a conversation. It fundamentally cannot be replied to in a reasonable way. What would even be cited? There was no quote in which to cite. Maybe if I scour Google hard enough I'll find someone else saying the same thing and then I can pretend that I quoted it instead of using my own words, but what would that gain?

The ethanol situation is an interesting topic that is worthy of continued discussion, I agree. It's unfortunate that the bad actor steered discussion away from it. Oh well.

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline, study finds

#132
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

which is why the Democratic Party changed it under cover of starting with "a more diverse state" Iowa no longer first; Democrats reorder the presidential primary calendar for 2024 https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/2022/1...

> which is why the Democratic Party changed it under cover of starting with "a more diverse state" It wasn’t because they care about offending farmers or removing ethanol subsidies, it was so that Biden can lock down some early primary wins in 2024 with States with a higher percentage of black voters.

The 2024 changes, inasmuch as they are about specific elections and not the general long-term arc of the party, are about 2028 more than 2024. No one is expecting a significantly contested nominating contest when the party has an incumbent President seeking reelection.

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline, study finds

#133
post #53

As others mentioned, this is not a new finding. There is a lot of academic and industrial/economic analysis on this subject. Ethanol from corn was never a good idea economically for anyone other than corn farmers. It is also bad environmentally and places additional competitive demand on our food supply (choice and competition between corn going into food or fuel supply). Similar analysis has been done on other crop…

Corn farmers from Iowa. Where they hold the first caucus of the interminable election season. No American politician or political party can afford to offend corn farmers. We should count ourselves lucky that our gasoline is only 10% corn.

Democrats have said South Carolina is kicking off their primaries now.

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline, study finds

#134

Doesn’t it also wear down engines more quickly?

Ethanol is hard on all the soft bits in an engine. Rubber seals, diaphrams and so on. This is most dramatically seen in small engines that still use carburetors vs fuel injection.

That isn't the ethanol, that is the bad gasoline they mix in with the ethanol. When you buy E0 you get a better grade of gasoline that doesn't degrade the seals as much.

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline, study finds

#135

As others mentioned, this is not a new finding. There is a lot of academic and industrial/economic analysis on this subject. Ethanol from corn was never a good idea economically for anyone other than corn farmers. It is also bad environmentally and places additional competitive demand on our food supply (choice and competition between corn going into food or fuel supply). Similar analysis has been done on other crop…

It’s not so much corn farmers as the operators of the ethanol plants who benefit. Lots of funds and support and mandates for their products to be bought.

Various things will always be done to prop up commodity prices for American farmers, if not ethanol then something else.

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline, study finds

#136
post #53

As others mentioned, this is not a new finding. There is a lot of academic and industrial/economic analysis on this subject. Ethanol from corn was never a good idea economically for anyone other than corn farmers. It is also bad environmentally and places additional competitive demand on our food supply (choice and competition between corn going into food or fuel supply). Similar analysis has been done on other crop…

Corn farmers from Iowa. Where they hold the first caucus of the interminable election season. No American politician or political party can afford to offend corn farmers. We should count ourselves lucky that our gasoline is only 10% corn.

Just because it was a plot point on the West Wing in 2006 doesn't make it reality. Iowa is not a kingmaker, and it's not even the first state in the primary season for Democrats anymore.

It's really just more mundane: BigAg is powerful and our representatives take their money.

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline, study finds

#137
post #53

As others mentioned, this is not a new finding. There is a lot of academic and industrial/economic analysis on this subject. Ethanol from corn was never a good idea economically for anyone other than corn farmers. It is also bad environmentally and places additional competitive demand on our food supply (choice and competition between corn going into food or fuel supply). Similar analysis has been done on other crop…

Corn farmers from Iowa. Where they hold the first caucus of the interminable election season. No American politician or political party can afford to offend corn farmers. We should count ourselves lucky that our gasoline is only 10% corn.

It’s not enough that we already subsidize them…

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline, study finds

#138
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is used, but not required, as an anti-knock additive. Unleaded E0 is still available in some places in the US with octane numbers on par with E10 and E15 blends https://stillwaterassociates.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/... https://www.pure-gas.org/

Those are not the same gasoline. Ethanol is high octane and so you mix it with a much worse grade of gasoline and get the same octane. E0 advocates attribute to lack of ethanol what is really just the better grade of gas.

Ethanol absorbs water which doesn’t always play nicely with seals and fuel lines, or at least that’s the commonly held belief.

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline, study finds

#139

> The research, which was funded in part by the National Wildlife Federation and U.S. Department of Energy Can't imagine there's any conflict of interest there. > ethanol is likely at least 24% more carbon-intensive than gasoline due to emissions resulting from land use changes to grow corn, along with processing and combustion. The nice thing about words like "likely" is that it leaves the door open for the other th…

It is worse than you probably think because of the fertilizer, transportation of crops (and operating farm machinery), drying of crops, fermentation to ethanol, and (perhaps most brutally) distillation to high enough grade to mix with hydrophobic gasoline.

I was doing reviews of at least a half dozen studies of this that dated back to the mid '00s, back then the most optimistic studies were around 1.3 joules of ethanol for 1 joule for extraction (which excludes the sunlight). Meaning you're burning 1 joule of gasoline to farm and transport and manufacture 1.3 joules of ethanol. But the pessimistic estimates from then were also below 1, meaning that you literally use more petrochemicals to support growing the crop than the crop produces in finished fuel.

Whether it's breakeven, a little positive, or a little negative we've known for a long time that it's marginal at best, thus the interest in cellulosic ethanol. Whether it's 0.7 joules out or 1.3 joules out per joule in depends on assumptions like how far you need to transport things and how dry the crops start. There's no way to avoid that uncertainty.

That whether it's positive, unity, or negative is sensitive to these variables is a statement of just how marginal it is. It should just be positive, always, or what are we doing? Confusingly, some oil wells are barely breakeven because they use so much energy to build the well and process the fuel.

You can follow the citations inside this article, but, for instance:

> Resulting EROI is typically around 1.4-1.5 [for shale oil].

So every 1.4-1.5 joules of shale oil you burn required 1 joule of other energy to extract. Net it produces only 0.4-0.5 joules of free energy after extraction, and that's... well, arguably not actually enough to operate a civilization but let's not go there.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_return_on_investment#Sh...

Corn ethanol has been a scam and known to be one for a very long time. Shale oil is marginally less of a scam, but is truly hard to justify compared to PV solar or wind which both easily exceed 4 and 34 depending on the details.

But no, variation in the estimated EROEI is entirely normal and expected because different sites have different details.

Re: U.S. corn-based ethanol worse for the climate than gasoline, study finds

#140
A big problem with agriculture-based bio-fuels, is that growing crops with modern technology uses a lot of fuel. Tractors and other machinery, fertilizer, and a million other things all take energy, which often comes in the form of fossil fuels.

My brother-in-law has a farm, and claims that if you look at the amount of energy used and produced by farms, agriculture hasn't been economically viable for more than half a century. We pump fuel out of the ground, have farms turn it into food, and we eat that. It works because the energy from fossil fuels is already there, and eating is important. But if farms turn fuel into more fuel, those farms need to be a lot more efficient, or we're just burning fuel for nothing.

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