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Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

jonathanhaidt.substack.com

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Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#671

Post by belorn »

colinsane wrote: post #664
belorn wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a very interesting aspect of all this kind of discussion that when any problem exist for girls and women, the problem is described as being caused by an external force. When ever a problem exist for boys and men, the problem is described as an internal force within the boys and men themselves. As long I have seen those topics on HN it never fails to display this cultural view about men and women. Men not gradua…

i overall agree with this comment, but i do hear a lot about how “men’s role in society is changing”, and “why do we have so many un(der)employed men: because of the degradation of their role as exclusive breadwinner to a family” (i.e. fewer men having children, more women joining the workforce). those are external forces acting on men. flipping both axes, there’s also the perception that women today “choose to” have…

Generally when I see discussion around men's role in society, the way people phrase it is that the change is in how men themselves view their role in society. If I type your phrase ("men’s role in society is changing") into a search engine and pick the first result, it talks about how men define themselves. The change might be external, but the problem space and solution is framed exclusively as internal.

And yes there is a "glass half-empty" aspect to it, but the aspect I want to highlight is that problem and solutions are generally framed internal when men as a demographic is described. The suggested solution is not that society should do anything to help men, but rather than men must change themselves.

Naturally we can flip this. We can creatively frame it as an historically injustice that men was forced to work exclusive to provide for women who did not support themselves, and now men are free to choose to spend time on other things like say video games. A hostile society however looks down on this and thus physiologically harming those men who choose to do something else than perusing a carer as a breadwinner for a wife and family. The problem is with society and it is society where the change should occur.

The above is obviously an extreme way to frame it and exist only illustrate how the framing impacts the discussion. I generally do not see such explicit framing when reading scientific studies, through they often align to a degree with the cultural framing that the author inhabits. Meta studies in social science often highlight when multiple studies on the same subject have conflicting results because the framing is made in conflicting cultures.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#672

Post by mulmen »

mixmastamyk wrote: post #662
mulmen wrote: post #652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No? If the communication can happen in person it can happen online. There was no shortage of gossip on MSN Messenger when I was in school. If social media is as important to these kids as it sounds then follower count or posting style may be as important as athleticism and charisma.

Putting BigTech profits before child welfare, nice. Another look at the linked piece may be in order? At one time, everyone thought smoking was important as well, to fit in. Now we know better.

Did you reply to the right comment?

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#673

Post by Karrot_Kream »

cubefox wrote: post #658
Karrot_Kream wrote: post #127

I'm not convinced how any of this shows causation. Probably the strongest point in this substack pointing to causation is the use of longitudinal studies. Haidt is using a meta-analysis of long-term specific (as opposed to short term studies which display no effect, there's merit here as a longer longitudinal study is probably better) longitudinal studies to make this point, so essentially saying that a meta-analysis…

Do you have an alternate hypothesis which could explain the results of all the studies the cites?

Of course, I have a few. The case for correlation is clear, and numerous studies of varying statistical power have proved it. The question is causation. So if social media usage isn't causal, then what is?

I think most people who are skeptical of causation would point to a hidden latent variable that is actually causal. One way this could take place is some feature, say "susceptibility to fomo", that's actually causal. Folks who have a higher susceptibility might see frequent, sharp decreases in mental health outcomes from social media usage. Folks with low susceptibility might be relatively unaffected from social media usage. It could be interesting to see what the prevalence of this susceptibility is in the general population, whether there are certain cohorts that have high prevalence, and whether there are interventions that can be performed to decrease this prevalence.

A similar analogous cause is the presence of schizophrenia in an analysis of psychedelic use. Most folks are fine using psychedelics infrequently. However, folks with a predilection for schizophrenia frequently have bad outcomes from psychedelic use and may even accelerate the onset of latent schizophrenia.

The above "fomo susceptibility" might even be too simplistic a model. There might be a cluster of features, combinations of past experiences and perhaps biological traits, that actually act as "fomo susceptibility." I loosely think the real model works something like this. Age may be a controlling factor as well. Regardless, I'm not convinced there's causation here. Social media usage research is like a lot of other poorly understood psychological and mental health phenomenon where studies are underpowered, causality is hard to establish, and effect sizes are small which all lead to conflicting conclusions.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#674

Post by m463 »

tlogan wrote: post #530
timst4 wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Middle School educator here. I can assure you that your daughters will not be alone when it comes to a moratorium on social media. However, the girls they may very well want to be friends with may be very much into social media and group chats. My advice is to be firm but also take steps to create social opportunities for your daughters. I have a 12yo and I host board game nights with amazing snack trays. I help her…

As both a parent and someone who interacts with middle school educators, I can confidently say that there may be gaps in your knowledge that you are unaware of. Children today are often smarter and more technologically savvy than many adults give them credit for: and some of them will start “business” to sell “internet access” to others. Just a comment form from dad fighting with similar issues.

My friend found an unexpected portable nintendo in his son's closet. It was loaded with a LOT of games. He figures his son was playing with it during homework/sleep time to his detriment.

Turns out his birthday money from relatives financed it. Even though he was about 11 or 12, he found a youtube video on how to get a credit card, then was able to purchase a system and create an online account to buy games.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#675

Post by kortilla »

andrei_says_ wrote: post #492
lll-o-lll wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks a ton for this. As a father of a pre-teen daughter who begs for a smartphone every day, I’ve been anxious about how I’m going to deal with this situation. I’d only been thinking in terms of defence, and this article had me really worried. Planning for how to create the social opportunities is just as important. Defence and Offence. I really like it!

iOS has excellent parental control tools, down to time allowance on per app level. Of course a decision to use restriction would ideally be one made together with the child so that they can truly consent.

>that they can truly consent.

This is bullshit. They are not consenting. They are succumbing to coercion due to power dynamics at best or are straight up being overridden by what you want.

Parenting is not negotiating with an adult, especially if they are preteen/early teenage years. They are humans with terrible executive functions that would be wards of the state without you.

You can certainly explain why you’re making a decision, but it’s really just your decision.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#676

Post by jasmer »

This is extraordinary. Imagine the political fallout here given how powerful Meta is and the competing narratives.

This is the kind of thing that should be front and centre in media discussion, but Meta has too much money. It's just not.

This, and the Opioid push by Big Pharma have to be taken much more seriously.

I suggest there might be some massive lawsuits on the way.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#677

Post by jasmer »

lsy wrote: post #185

I think it's somewhat important to ask why this effect is more observable for girls than for boys, and Haidt does not seem to really reflect on that. Social media in and of itself is really just an accelerant for the particular set of social expectations we stack on girls and women around appearance and how that relates to self-worth. Boys have more capacity to transcend social media's focus on image and beauty by fi…

Not only that they should differentiate between kinds of media.

I suggest that TikTok may not be bad at all. My feed is cats and farm animals.

But girls are higher on 'neuroticism' than boys, and I suggest that's a strong correlating aspect. Whey they are higher on that I have no idea but they are.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#678

Post by roomey »

kortilla wrote: post #675
andrei_says_ wrote: post #492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

iOS has excellent parental control tools, down to time allowance on per app level. Of course a decision to use restriction would ideally be one made together with the child so that they can truly consent.

>that they can truly consent. This is bullshit. They are not consenting. They are succumbing to coercion due to power dynamics at best or are straight up being overridden by what you want. Parenting is not negotiating with an adult, especially if they are preteen/early teenage years. They are humans with terrible executive functions that would be wards of the state without you. You can certainly explain why you’re ma…

Don't take consent too literally here.

You get a lot further by engaging and explaining things with a child, and proceeding with their agreement.

"Because I said so" is not a good approach, which I think the op meant

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#679

Post by sw104 »

caput770 wrote: post #359
lsy wrote: post #185

I think it's somewhat important to ask why this effect is more observable for girls than for boys, and Haidt does not seem to really reflect on that. Social media in and of itself is really just an accelerant for the particular set of social expectations we stack on girls and women around appearance and how that relates to self-worth. Boys have more capacity to transcend social media's focus on image and beauty by fi…

I think part of it is that for every teenage girl spending 5 hours a day on social media, there's a teenage boy spending 5 hours a day playing video games, often with other teenage boys. I'd guess that video games are a more positive way to socialize, because teenagers are cooperating and competing rather than comparing themselves to others on social media.

More like "some" video games.

On one end you have lads playing video games who turn out to be good managers/workers in tech. On the other end, you have socially stunted lads who gradually find themselves falling down the "incel" rabbit hole.

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