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KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

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Re: KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

#331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many different versions of OpenSSL are running on my laptop right now? Who can say? That's the beauty of flatpak: if you sweep the problems of software management under a big enough rug, they go away and never bother you again.

Why would I care? Ok Spotify has an old package with some vulnerabilities in it. But flatpak has it sandboxed so the worst you could do is maybe steal my Spotify session token. That's more a problem for Spotify than it is for me. They will go and fix their package and I will reset my sessions. Meanwhile we have distros lagging behind for years to provide a new package because they can't break all the things depending…

> But flatpak has it sandboxed so

Sandboxing should be a separate tool independent of packaging systems and anything else .

Re: KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

#332

I haven't been the biggest fan of flatpak and generally wish software would either be packaged as an rpm or an AppImage, but the OP makes a pretty strong case for why it's a good idea (because existing options are too niche, and have no ability to incentivize developers who need to get paid for their work. This leads to Linux desktop having far fewer applications available to them compared to windows and mac.) I do h…

AppImage has issues. The guy from Suse who does MicroOS, Richard Brown, a few years ago was literally walking around giving talk about how bad Flatpak was and how everybody should use AppImage. In his most recent talk he basically said, he was wrong, the Flatpak people did address most of the issue he had and AppImage was no viable. https://fosdem.org/2023/schedule/event/containerised_apps/

AppImage still just works, just like tarball bundles without dependency on 3rd party infrastructure and overengineered solutions like snap and flatpak.

Re: KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

#333
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is NixOS a cult? Every time someone posts about Linux packaging, there's a "you should just use NixOS" comment. Although it provides its own solution to the Linux packaging problem, it's a single solution that comes with a whole load of baggage with it. It is not the panacea its proponents wants us to believe it is.

I think in conversation we don't separate the fundamental concepts that Nix implements from the particular implementation. The fundamental idea is this: Every package is built in a "hermetic" environment that guarantees that the only inputs are the ones you have explicitly specified. Those inputs include tools, source files, compilers, build instructions etc., all specified by a hash. Those inputs themselves can then…

Indeed; GNU Guix is essentially the same thing, but with a different language and CLI (the two main source of complaints about Nix).

Similar to how Git has a notorious CLI; but that doesn't invalidate the idea of DVCS (with alternative implementations in Mercurial, Bazaar, Darcs, etc.)

Re: KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

#334

Flatpak is a solution to package management as Docker is to servers. What's the predominant reason people use Docker? Because it's impossible to get a Python/NodeJS monstrosity working properly without it. On rolling release distributions, you don't ever need Flatpak. Its predominance is found in stable release distributions like Ubuntu and Fedora. Because they stall packages and their dependencies, it'll always be a…

> On rolling release distributions, you don't ever need Flatpak.

What if I need older version of some software? Or what if I need multiple versions of the same software at once?

Re: KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

#335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How many different versions of OpenSSL are running on my laptop right now? Who can say? That's the beauty of flatpak: if you sweep the problems of software management under a big enough rug, they go away and never bother you again.

> if you sweep the problems of software management under a big enough rug, they go away and never bother you again. ...until attackers find a vulnerability in some library, then you are really in trouble. Just like docker, the bundling of tons of software into opaque blobs is terrible for security.

Yeah I didn't realize people would take the joke there seriously. It's basically looking at package management and saying "this is hard so we won't try".

Re: KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

#336
>As we also open the ability for applications to be uploaded in binary form, which is essential for low-friction compatibility with popular language-specific build systems such as Electron/Node, Rust, Go, etc - we also reduce the ability for users to scrutinise the source in the Flathub build system that was used to build their application.

This is unacceptable. Open-source apps should always be built from source on a trusted infrastructure and ideally the builds should be reproducible. Otherwise, one of the main benefits of open-source software -- ability to verify its security -- is completely lost.

Fortunately, Flatpak != Flathub. There is also Fedora's flatpak repository and that's what I'm using. It doesn't have as many apps as Flathub, but their number is growing.

I prefer flatpaks to RPMs because of the sandboxing feature. While it's not perfect yet, I like that I can forbid most of my apps to access the network and to limit access to the filesystem and other system parts for apps that require network as much as possible. As a result, the trusted base of my system can be reduced significantly (and the base system can then use other method to confine its processes which on Fedora is SELinux).

Another benefit of Flatpak over traditional packaging systems is that it's a cross-distro package manager and the apps can be installed on any Linux distribution. Even if we end up with multiple Flatpak repositories like Flathub and Fedora Flatpaks with different approaches and philosophies, users of any Linux-based OS can then install apps from any repository they like, and OS developers can focus on the base system.

So in general I like Flatpak and I think it's a step in the right direction, but I can't say the same about Flathub. For me it's unacceptable to install anything from Flathub unless they fix their supply chain security flaws.

Re: KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

#337
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>...working together on one definitive GNU/Linux DE No thanks. GNOME dev hubris is the reason I use KDE

I used GNOME for a long time, but I didn't like the bloat, among other things, such as the "I know better than you" attitude from the devs. At the same time KDE has a tendency to get me into rabbit holes, and then inevitably something breaks at some point that I don't know how to repair because it is rather too complicated of a system. (This is ~2017, not sure if things have changed). For now, I just use bspwm, polyb…

Things have changed a lot since 2017. In 2017, I wouldn't touch KDE with a barge pole because I had work to do and it would disassemble itself if I looked at it funny.

Now I'm writing this reply from KDE, quite comfortably, and it's quite stable. Comfortable, even. And it doesn't get stupid and die when I plug/unplug monitors and stuff.

Re: KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

#338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last I tried all three of the semi-popular formats like this, AppImage was the only one that didn't feel fundamentally wrong (though what I gather was the closest thing to an official repository for them looked sketchy as hell—somehow they copied the exact CSS vibe as a content-scraped StackOverflow spam site). But that was a couple years ago. I know Snaps still suck, but haven't messed with Flatpacks since then, so…

I wanted to like AppImage, but it just didn't seem integrated well enough. Flatpak gives you: - Installation (no manually moving files from ~/Downloads) - Launcher integration (no writing .desktop files by hand) - Auto updating As far as I saw, AppImage didn't have any of that. Though it was a while ago (and maybe some of this was my distro's fault). Has any of this improved lately?

there's a program called 'appimage launcher' or something along those lines, that will show a dialog window anytime you open an appimage and you can choose to just run it once or to integrate it, which copy it into a specified folder where the rest of your appimages are and then also create a desktop shortcut. it doesnt handle updates though

ive been using flatpak more myself these days but i hope the appimage format sticks around because its handy being able to quickly try out some software and then delete it when you are done, or to try out a new version of something and have both running at the same time

Re: KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

#339
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it would be incredible to see all of the passionate, talented folks working together on one definitive GNU/Linux DE. This would be terrible. Gnome and KDE have pretty conflicting ideologies. Gnome is super opinionated and Mac-like minimalist. KDE is all about user choice. If they'd collaborate it would end up something in the middle which would suit nobody.

> Gnome is super opinionated and Mac-like minimalist. The problem with this is that Mac, unlike Gnome, actually works. Gnome just has weird holes where old functionality was removed (like application menus!) and never replaced.

> actually works

Yeah. Without proper window management, middle click and other things I need 3rd party apps for.

Re: KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

#340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How many different versions of OpenSSL are running on my laptop right now? Who can say? That's the beauty of flatpak And how many of them are critically out of date because the software maintainer didn't update? Who can say? That's the beauty of flatpack (not). With flatpack you have all the downside of static linking with none of its advantages, how exciting. (and there's nothing as cool as having 7 full linux dis…

I suppose it shouldn't surprise me that the sarcasm of my comment wasn't apparent to everyone.

Poe's law strikes again.
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