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KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

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Re: KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

#311

Post by goodpoint »

sph wrote: post #282
yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #274

> As we also open the ability for applications to be uploaded in binary form, which is essential for low-friction compatibility with popular language-specific build systems such as Electron/Node, Rust, Go, etc - we also reduce the ability for users to scrutinise the source in the Flathub build system that was used to build their application. ...and their solution is running an antivirus scanner rather than stepping b…

Is NixOS a cult? Every time someone posts about Linux packaging, there's a "you should just use NixOS" comment. Although it provides its own solution to the Linux packaging problem, it's a single solution that comes with a whole load of baggage with it. It is not the panacea its proponents wants us to believe it is.

> Is NixOS a cult?

Rather than being a cult in itself, there's a crowd of very vocal fanboys similar to the RIIR stike force. Pestering people with "why don't you use $thing" is not good advocacy.

Re: KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

#312

Post by [deleted] »

boudin wrote: post #296
idonotknowwhy wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So these integrate well now? I normally just use AUR for everything now, and remember having issues with a flatpak for rpcs3 a few years ago, ended up compiling from src

Yes, actually flatpak triggered some interesting projects that are going beyong flatpak now: - pipewire for audio/video stream management that allows sandboxing - xdg-desktop portals to integrate the sandboxed apps in the host desktop environment and operating system. It's what allows the host DE ui to grant permissions (like reading/writing a file, accessing screen share, etc...) It will depend how an app has been p…

[deleted]

Re: KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

#313

Post by goodpoint »

bandrami wrote: post #100
yamtaddle wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Last I tried all three of the semi-popular formats like this, AppImage was the only one that didn't feel fundamentally wrong (though what I gather was the closest thing to an official repository for them looked sketchy as hell—somehow they copied the exact CSS vibe as a content-scraped StackOverflow spam site). But that was a couple years ago. I know Snaps still suck, but haven't messed with Flatpacks since then, so…

How many different versions of OpenSSL are running on my laptop right now? Who can say? That's the beauty of flatpak: if you sweep the problems of software management under a big enough rug, they go away and never bother you again.

> if you sweep the problems of software management under a big enough rug, they go away and never bother you again.

...until attackers find a vulnerability in some library, then you are really in trouble.

Just like docker, the bundling of tons of software into opaque blobs is terrible for security.

Re: KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

#314

Post by goodpoint »

yamtaddle wrote: post #117
Volundr wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Until openssl has another vulnerability.

It's a problem of the many-distros model for Linux—or, if you prefer, it's a problem of Linux just being a kernel. You can't just target "Desktop Linux 15" and expect to have all the stuff that Desktop Linux 15 has, including a robust set of basic libraries and a unified GUI stack and standard same-on-every-copy-of-Linux-15 multimedia libraries and services and all that good stuff, and let the OS worry about keeping…

> It's a problem of the many-distros model for Linux

No, it is not. If you want security you need dependency management and software lifecycle management on all OSes and platforms.

Re: KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

#315

Post by goodpoint »

canadaduane wrote: post #89

Richard Brown, who's been working on this problem for 10 years at Suse, says he was wrong in 2017. Flatpak is now the clear way to go, if you care about security, app updates, licensing, and multi-distro support (runtime dependencies). https://ftp.fau.de/fosdem/2023/UA2.114%20(Baudoux)/container...

He's still wrong.

Re: KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

#316

Post by exyi »

sph wrote: post #282
yjftsjthsd-h wrote: post #274

> As we also open the ability for applications to be uploaded in binary form, which is essential for low-friction compatibility with popular language-specific build systems such as Electron/Node, Rust, Go, etc - we also reduce the ability for users to scrutinise the source in the Flathub build system that was used to build their application. ...and their solution is running an antivirus scanner rather than stepping b…

Is NixOS a cult? Every time someone posts about Linux packaging, there's a "you should just use NixOS" comment. Although it provides its own solution to the Linux packaging problem, it's a single solution that comes with a whole load of baggage with it. It is not the panacea its proponents wants us to believe it is.

Sure there is no silver bullet. However, I don't know about anything which would since this flathub problem as well as Nix:

* Works on all (most) distros * Builds the packages from sources, binaries are only a cache to speed things up. * Bonus: already has a lot of software packaged

And proprietary works in the system too, the build step can just download the binary from internet. It's not a preferred way to do it, but you don't have to build a broken system just because of few packages without source access

Re: KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

#317

Post by exyi »

BirAdam wrote: post #170
wkat4242 wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but it would be incredible to see all of the passionate, talented folks working together on one definitive GNU/Linux DE. This would be terrible. Gnome and KDE have pretty conflicting ideologies. Gnome is super opinionated and Mac-like minimalist. KDE is all about user choice. If they'd collaborate it would end up something in the middle which would suit nobody.

Well, GNOME actually exceeds macOS minimalism… at least in macOS I have the ability to hide the top bar, several ways to launch apps, a systray, graphical configuration for most things, the ability to change keymappings, and so on. In GNOME, I need 3rd party tools for all of that.

At least in GNOME, I can turn off the laptop screen without closing the lid

...you can't compare minimalism/configurability in this way

Re: KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

#318

Post by padraic7a »

teekert wrote: post #285
sph wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is NixOS a cult? Every time someone posts about Linux packaging, there's a "you should just use NixOS" comment. Although it provides its own solution to the Linux packaging problem, it's a single solution that comes with a whole load of baggage with it. It is not the panacea its proponents wants us to believe it is.

I don't use NixOS, but from what I've read, you should just use NixOS. All kidding aside, I installed NixOS (it installs like any other distro, it's just that after that you are completely lost), but it's a real paradigm shift. I'm just hoping for Ubuntu Declarative Donkey at this point and hope someone addresses the learning curve and the specialist language and tools used. I'd hate to invest all this time and then…

I don't use NixOS, or have any great interest in it tbh. But this podcast featuring Martin Wimpress (of Linux Mate and other projects) does a decent job of describing what NixOS is, and previews some ongoing and upcoming efforts to address the learning curve and lingo around it.

https://linuxdowntime.com/category/podcast/

Re: KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

#319

Post by quectophoton »

linuxandrew wrote: post #250
wrycoder wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even better, install Devuan, which is Debian without systemd (the attempt to turn Linux into Windows). Many former Debian developers are now working on Devuan.

> systemd (the attempt to turn Linux into Windows) systemd was actually inspired by launchd, not Windows. But I guess systemd, Windows and launchd do share one thing in common which is not having a bunch of bandaid shell scripts hanging the system together.

Presumably they're talking about systemd as a whole, not just the tiny subset of systemd that is used as init system or service manager.

I don't think I've seen anyone complain about systemd's init system or service manager; it's always about the remaining 90% of systemd's scope and its tight coupling between all its parts (the tight coupling being the main problem).

Re: KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

#320

Post by UltimateEdge »

gapan wrote: post #284
bandrami wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lagging isn't always a bad thing. Users of Debian Stable missed Heartbleed entirely. But this gets to the mindset that bugs me about Flatpak, the magical thinking that regressions don't happen. It's why Alice can't downgrade a system flatpak because it might introduce a vulnerability she uses to attack Bob, but it's absolutely fine if she upgrades to introduce that vulnerability.

While I generally agree with you with respect to the mindset, it is actually possible to downgrade a flatpak [1]. It is rather involved, but possible. I have done it to downgrade cheese (the webcam app) since newer versions don't have the filters that older ones did, at least not for me. [1]: https://itsfoss.com/downgrade-flatpak-packages/

> it is actually possible to downgrade a flatpak

Only when the version you want to downgrade to happens to be within the last 10 versions! Why 10? Beats me!

Case in point: the flatpak package for the Element messaging client seems to be the preferred installation method for non-debian distros. But for many users, encrypted message search is broken! [1] [2] Some users claim that downgrading can fix the issue, but the flatpak has been updated too many times now for any user to downgrade to an old enough version - tough luck!

[1] https://github.com/vector-im/element-web/issues?q=is%3Aissue... [2] https://github.com/flathub/im.riot.Riot/issues?q=is%3Aissue+...

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