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Eduard: Swiss-Style Relief Shading for Maps Using Machine Learning

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Re: Eduard: Swiss-Style Relief Shading for Maps Using Machine Learning

#11

Post by nestorD »

mashygpig wrote: post #6

Is there an easy way to see that this problem is complicated enough to require a neural network? I'm a noob in graphics, but this problem seems like it shouldn't be that difficult to require a neural net.

It does look like it would be doable without neural networks. My guess (having read their paper but not worked in the domain) is that it would be doable but requires a lot of iterations, tweaking parameters and dealing with corner cases. That would give you something running almost instantaneously but it would take a year to develop with tight feedback from domain experts.

Or, you can throw a (relatively standard for that kind of task) neural network at the problem, have a prototype at the end of the week and something solid by the end of the month.

In those conditions it makes sense to go with the neural network based solution (however, I do hope that having this result will push people to work on a more traditional approach that is competitive with the neural network based one).

Re: Eduard: Swiss-Style Relief Shading for Maps Using Machine Learning

#12

Post by glibby »

recuter wrote: post #10
mashygpig wrote: post #6

Is there an easy way to see that this problem is complicated enough to require a neural network? I'm a noob in graphics, but this problem seems like it shouldn't be that difficult to require a neural net.

There's a nice example on that page with an overlayed relief shaded map and the original. Can you explain in English step by step how you would turn one into the other manually using something like photoshop?

Use the partial derivatives of the topo height to calculate a normal. dot that normal against your fake sun angle to shade your terrain. it seems though that the magic in this is in throwing away specific details and changing the sun angle when it is aesthetically pleasing which makes sense. on the surface it looks like you should be able to use the heightfield and standard filters to get a reasonable result but I'll take their word for it that real world data will prove more difficult.

Re: Eduard: Swiss-Style Relief Shading for Maps Using Machine Learning

#13

Post by rcme »

DavidAdams wrote: post #8
mashygpig wrote: post #6

Is there an easy way to see that this problem is complicated enough to require a neural network? I'm a noob in graphics, but this problem seems like it shouldn't be that difficult to require a neural net.

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that a 2D map is going to have roads and valleys and big green spaces in the mountainsides and peaks. The neural net identifies that villages and curvy roads represent valley floors and interpolate where the mountain slopes are.

I think it's using the contour lines on the map, not the villages and roads. The paper mentions the training data is contour maps and relief maps of the same area.

Re: Eduard: Swiss-Style Relief Shading for Maps Using Machine Learning

#14

Post by folli »

In Swiss-Style Relief shading, the light comes from North West, which is impossible in the northern hemisphere. This makes sunny south facing slopes shaded and shaded north facing slopes light.

Legend says that this was an intentional design decision, because right handed people usually have their desk lighting on the top left of their desk, giving the map a 3D like appearance.

Here's an article on the topic (german only), it seems to have caused quite the debate back in the day: https://www.swisstopo.admin.ch/de/home.detail.news.html/swis...

Re: Eduard: Swiss-Style Relief Shading for Maps Using Machine Learning

#15

Post by folli »

rcme wrote: post #13
DavidAdams wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that a 2D map is going to have roads and valleys and big green spaces in the mountainsides and peaks. The neural net identifies that villages and curvy roads represent valley floors and interpolate where the mountain slopes are.

I think it's using the contour lines on the map, not the villages and roads. The paper mentions the training data is contour maps and relief maps of the same area.

I agree, the paper and the examples therein are worth a quick look: https://arxiv.org/abs/2010.01256

They mention using DEM data only, no roads, villages etc.

Re: Eduard: Swiss-Style Relief Shading for Maps Using Machine Learning

#16

Post by folli »

I'm facing the issue on how to aesthetically visualize my hiking and skiing GPS tracks in mountainous terrain (similar to the OP, I live in Switzerland, so it's either up or down).

I've decided to go directly the 3D route using Babylon.js, see here for an example: https://cubetrek.com/view/6338

Within Switzerland, it also uses Swiss-style maps as texture, outside of Switzerland a visually similar map style.

I'm looking for Beta testers, so feel free to sign up: https://cubetrek.com/

Re: Eduard: Swiss-Style Relief Shading for Maps Using Machine Learning

#17

Post by nl »

DavidAdams wrote: post #8
mashygpig wrote: post #6

Is there an easy way to see that this problem is complicated enough to require a neural network? I'm a noob in graphics, but this problem seems like it shouldn't be that difficult to require a neural net.

I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that a 2D map is going to have roads and valleys and big green spaces in the mountainsides and peaks. The neural net identifies that villages and curvy roads represent valley floors and interpolate where the mountain slopes are.

This is wrong. Relief shading is done from the topological data itself (ie, the contours).

Re: Eduard: Swiss-Style Relief Shading for Maps Using Machine Learning

#19

Post by antipotoad »

folli wrote: post #16

I'm facing the issue on how to aesthetically visualize my hiking and skiing GPS tracks in mountainous terrain (similar to the OP, I live in Switzerland, so it's either up or down). I've decided to go directly the 3D route using Babylon.js, see here for an example: https://cubetrek.com/view/6338 Within Switzerland, it also uses Swiss-style maps as texture, outside of Switzerland a visually similar map style. I'm looki…

Looks really nice. One comment from a usability perspective: it would be nice if the center of rotation were a point on the trail, rather than a point somewhere underneath the landscape. Better still if that center point was dynamic as you pan around the map, such that it’s always the ‘middle’ point of the trail segment that’s in the viewport (at least, I think that’s what my brain is telling me it wants, I might be specifying that slightly wrong).

Great work anyhow!

Re: Eduard: Swiss-Style Relief Shading for Maps Using Machine Learning

#20

Post by folli »

antipotoad wrote: post #19
folli wrote: post #16

I'm facing the issue on how to aesthetically visualize my hiking and skiing GPS tracks in mountainous terrain (similar to the OP, I live in Switzerland, so it's either up or down). I've decided to go directly the 3D route using Babylon.js, see here for an example: https://cubetrek.com/view/6338 Within Switzerland, it also uses Swiss-style maps as texture, outside of Switzerland a visually similar map style. I'm looki…

Looks really nice. One comment from a usability perspective: it would be nice if the center of rotation were a point on the trail, rather than a point somewhere underneath the landscape. Better still if that center point was dynamic as you pan around the map, such that it’s always the ‘middle’ point of the trail segment that’s in the viewport (at least, I think that’s what my brain is telling me it wants, I might be…

Thanks for trying it out! I like the idea about the dynamic center of rotation, I have not thought about this.

Let me know if you have any other suggestions: contact@cubetrek.com

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