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KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

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Re: KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

#221
post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there's a strong argument to be made that modern web browsers are a good deal more complex than operating systems -- or at least most kernels.

It all depends on how you draw your Venn diagrams, I suppose. Is Chrome a massively complex browser, or is it some window dressing and bookmark syncing sitting on top of Chromium, that itself is really just a simple UI around the Blink rendering engine. GNU/Chrome, anybody?

Tbh I kind of see the whole chrome/chromium/blink stack as a single team at Google.

Re: KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

#223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An AppImage is just a regular binary. Basically if you have a directory containing a binary plus other files it needs (libraries, assets, etc), AppImage packages the whole dir up into a single binary. That's it. Running the AppImage is the same as extracting the dir and running the binary inside it.

Right, it's just a binary. And if I'm installing an app, say Audacity, I would never go to GitHub and download the raw binary, because then I'd have to write the desktop file by hand, and also the app would never get updated when new versions are released. Instead I use a package manager or Flatpak. How are people keeping their AppImages updated?

I, on the other hand, want exactly that. I've never used a desktop file, and I want to control when and if I upgrade.

Re: KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

#224
post #34

I used to think Flatpaks were a huge pain the butt, but over the last few years, I moved to using them for all third party software that I run on my Fedora Linux workstation. Zoom, Slack, Spotify, Steam, Discord, Obsidian all run without issues and they get consistent updates. I am convinced now that they are one of the best ways to ship commercial software on to Linux desktop. Flatpak has been a key part of me becom…

> I used to think Flatpaks were a huge pain the butt, but over the last few years, I moved to using them for all third party software

I am a Nix person who has been a bit obsessed with package management for a long time, and it's probably fair to call me a bit of a 'container skeptic'. I know many good reasons to prefer other means of installing packages, and I agree with most of them. I care about things like the extra storage overhead, the increased app startup time, the additional complexity associated with portals and sandboxing, the extent to which Flatpak applications do or don't support the available sandboxing features, and the orientation of Flatpak towards enabling a larger proprietary software ecosystem I'm not very interested in.

But despite all of that, and despite my interest in— and to some extent, commitment to— competing paradigms... I think Flatpak does what it tries to do pretty well. It seems to me that the engineers working on it have done a pretty good job of mitigating the downsides and risks, like library duplication and difficulty of shared updates, disk usage, etc. Considering what it aims to do, it feels pretty fast, reliable, and neat. And I trust it way more than an apt or dnf or pacman repo hosted by the likes of Zoom, Google, Discord, etc. It's a much better way to manage third-party software than anything else we've got.

I think it's clearly a good thing that the biggest and most popular desktop environments are coalescing around it. This is good news for desktop Linux users in general, and especially good news for those of us who don't run Ubuntu or derivatives. The more things are packaged for Flatpak, the lower the burden for practical usage of distros maintained by small or new communities.

Re: KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

#225
post #222

I wish gnu/linux devs would pool their efforts occasionally. We have competing flatpak and snap efforts, with neither being all that good currently. Can we agree on a standard?

Flatpak is the standard, the only distro/company that don't accept it is canonical/ubuntu, every other company and distro ships flatpak as standard(btw snap only work in ubuntu)

Re: KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

#226
Flatpak has issues (size), but I think I can accept them as a part of the design and believe the other issues (crashes, security) will be solved as adoption grows.

Personally, I still prefer my repos with shared libraries when possible. I'm also able to keep a mirror of the packages to cut down on bandwidth.

I haven't figured out how to mirror the flatpaks yet, mostly due to lack of effort.

I'm excited, it will be good to have a cross-distro app store.

Re: KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

#227

maybe it's indeed time to let the system package management(apt,rpm,etc) just manage a solid BASE system, and let Flatpak etc to manage their own application sandboxes on top, kind of like dockers. Appimage is macos flavor, it never needs your sudo to install the package, which is nice. Flatpak is a redhat flavor(kind of), it needs sudo sometimes, but OK. Snap is a ubuntu flavor(kind of), it is like systemd that can…

> it's indeed time to let the system package management(apt,rpm,etc) just manage a solid BASE system

It totally is! Why does a distro maintainer need to pack every known application into the OS and make sure it works? This kind of work does not scale.

Re: KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

#228
post #27

Opinions on Flatpaks/snaps notwithstanding, it's encouraging to see KDE and GNOME collaborating on projects like this. IMO desktop GNU/Linux has benefited greatly from moving away from offering LXDE/LXQT/Mate/Enlightenment/Cinammon flavors and towards a more digestible subset (GNOME only, GNOME/KDE/XFCE, etc) of polished desktop environments. Pipe dream, but it would be incredible to see all of the passionate, talent…

I'd prefer to see more easily-communicated DE standards and published levels of adherence, rather than moving to the uni-desktop. Like if you want to select a desktop and are kind of new to desktop environments, maybe aim for the (imaginary example here) DE-5 level of standards-adherence. DE-4 and lower might suck in various ways even though they could have cool new features. There are way too many benefits from the…

This has existed for a long time from freedesktop.org, XDG specs, window manager extended hints, and so on.

And it's gotten better too - did you know KDE3 had it's own sound mixer daemon? It was called ArtsD. Now we have pulseaudio, or whatever, which is great and cross desktop

DBUS made it everywhere as well - I believe initially KDE3 as well did not have DBUS but had something called, DCOP. so - yeah things have improved a lot and many things - even command line tools 'playerctl' interop well based on this.

More fun is also like libreoffice is compiled with many different file pickers, so on KDE you can use the native Qt extended KDE file picker, and on Gnome you get the GTK one.

Re: KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, GNOME is so user-hostile that I'm actually a little impressed. Personal example from trying GNOME out recently: I have an external webcam, which means I need to move the GNOME panel clock since it's in the top middle of the screen (and thus blocked by the base of the webcam). You would _think_ that would be easy, but you have to get an extension just to move the clock! Apparently each panel "widget" (this may…

They're not really user-hostile, they just have limited development resources and making a polished interface for editing the positioning of top bar widgets would be way too much work. If you want to try things on your own, that's what unofficial extensions and tweaking tools are for.

Nah a bunch of clowns funded by private companies used their salaries to boost their egos to develop stupid anti-user centric desktop software starting after gnome 3 launched. Remove all options, treat everyone like an iPad baby and try to leverage the existing desktop to do a radical paradigm shift, when all people wanted was GNOME2+. This is actually different than KDE3->KDE4 transition, which while it was a total disaster in terms of usability and reliablity, continued to keep the roots of a power desktop in terms of flexibility configuration and software customization.

Re: KDE and GNOME seeks $100k to turn Flathub into a Store for the Linux desktop

#230
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even better, install Devuan, which is Debian without systemd (the attempt to turn Linux into Windows). Many former Debian developers are now working on Devuan.

How exactly does systemd turn Linux into Windows? Does it... Prevent dynamic linking? Offer strong backwards compatibility? Add support for a very wide range of hardware? Put advertisements in the start menu? Cause unexpected reboots for updates? Send telemetry to the OS manufacturer? Force users to get an online account unless they know the secret way to bypass the prompt? Or is there a differentiator between Window…

This has been re-hashed many times.

What you should look at is the difference between Debian and Devuan. Or between Debian and OpenBSD, to understand what the systemd project is doing, and how it’s doing it.

There are many of us that prefer Linux as it was before systemd.

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