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Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

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Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#51

Post by sbuttgereit »

rootusrootus wrote: post #23
jollyllama wrote: post #7

There's some other fundamental problem if cops and CPS were pulling these stunts anyway. Maybe some better mechanism for recourse against overreach is needed?

First I'd like to know the incidence rate. We tend to see a few specific examples regurgitated repeatedly for several years after they occur, which leads me to suspect that it perhaps doesn't happen that often. This is a nation of 330 million people, after all, so it's unrealistic to expect stupidity will happen zero times.

I agree with what you say in principle, but if that's true the (possibly) few cases of overreach have to have remedy for those that are injured. But now we're starting to get into the territory of issues of qualified immunity are an issue (recently discussed here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34901629, for example).

Having said that, I think the tendency of state agencies, in a political landscape where we regularly justify increased legal intrusiveness into our lives using "think of the children" arguments, to use state power to force our personal cultural prerogatives, and to ask the state to generally solve our problems for us, will be for "stupid" child protective actions to increase over time.

So I applaud the actions to nip this is in the bud... assuming you're right.

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#52

Post by swatcoder »

vuln wrote: post #27

This law will not give "poor kids more independence", it absolves the parent or guardian of legal responsibility for their children being unsupervised. I can't be the only one that's seen the hundreds if not THOUSANDS of children (under 18) fighting, causing mayhem, attacking innocent people, and property destruction videos that circulate all over the internet. Will this help edge cases? The mom working at the pizza…

> I can't be the only one that's seen the hundreds if not THOUSANDS of children (under 18) fighting, causing mayhem, attacking innocent people, and property destruction videos that circulate all over the internet.

I can’t think of a worse way to assess the state of society than by consuming viral videos circulated online. This is a really disturbing way to form or justify opinions.

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#53

Post by hn_version_0023 »

syrrim wrote: post #24
wonderwonder wrote: post #20

I remember reading a news story about a poor single mom who was renting a room in an extended stay and working in a pizzarea across the street from it. She left her 9? year old alone in the room so she could work. Cops show up and take her kid and arrest her for child endangerment. They made it illegal to be a poor single working mom.

They made it illegal to be a single mom and not provide adequate childcare. Many families have both parents working, so the situation of needing to find someone to look after your child is not unique to single parents. That said, this is one of the reasons raising children on your own is more difficult.

What is inadequate about leaving a 9yro child at home in her own home, alone?

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#54

Post by strken »

syrrim wrote: post #24
wonderwonder wrote: post #20

I remember reading a news story about a poor single mom who was renting a room in an extended stay and working in a pizzarea across the street from it. She left her 9? year old alone in the room so she could work. Cops show up and take her kid and arrest her for child endangerment. They made it illegal to be a poor single working mom.

They made it illegal to be a single mom and not provide adequate childcare. Many families have both parents working, so the situation of needing to find someone to look after your child is not unique to single parents. That said, this is one of the reasons raising children on your own is more difficult.

As a 9 year old (admittedly not in the US), when there was a day without school but my parents still had to work, I was allowed to stay home on my own and ride my bicycle to a town 5km away to buy lunch. My 7 year old brother wasn't allowed to stay home, but came on similar trips with me.

The adequate childcare for a responsible 9 year old might be "tell them to call 911 if there's a serious emergency, or text you if anything comes up".

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#55

Post by fl0ps »

pilarphosol wrote: post #31
kwhitefoot wrote: post #26

The US seems to be the only country that has this problem. Children here (Norway) walk to school on their own at the age of five or six, some of them take buses. "Ashley Smith, a foster dad, testified about being investigated for neglect because one afternoon his daughter, 8, was doing her homework on the front lawn. A passerby reported an “unsupervised” child (not knowing Ashley was actually inside). The upshot: “We…

The US is a low trust society, because of all the poverty. You really notice the difference if you travel to Europe. It turns out that having half of the population be economically unsafe makes everyone and everything unsafe.

The US is a low trust society because we're told not to trust people through highly negative news stories. The result is the US being primed to think there are child murderers and rapists under every bush, etc, etc. Ancedent to this unintentional effect was the incentivised "if it bleeds it reads" motivation for promotion of the highly negative.

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#56

Post by vuln »

lolinder wrote: post #41
vuln wrote: post #27

This law will not give "poor kids more independence", it absolves the parent or guardian of legal responsibility for their children being unsupervised. I can't be the only one that's seen the hundreds if not THOUSANDS of children (under 18) fighting, causing mayhem, attacking innocent people, and property destruction videos that circulate all over the internet. Will this help edge cases? The mom working at the pizza…

You haven't read the text of any of the bills, have you? > A CHILD IS NOT NEGLECTED WHEN ALLOWED TO PARTICIPATE IN INDEPENDENT ACTIVITIES THAT A REASONABLE AND PRUDENT PARENT, GUARDIAN, OR LEGAL CUSTODIAN WOULD CONSIDER SAFE GIVEN THE CHILD'S MATURITY, CONDITION, AND ABILITIES Which part of this language triggers your apocalyptic fears? https://leg.colorado.gov/bills/hb22-1090

Actually after reading the bill you linked (apologies I was looking at the other states bills) you left out the main point that does actually reduce my "apocalyptic fears"

IV) REMAINING IN A HOME OR OTHER LOCATION THAT A REASONABLE AND PRUDENT PARENT, GUARDIAN, OR LEGAL CUSTODIAN WOULD CONSIDER SAFE FOR THE CHILD.

So not roaming around the city or in a random location.

A _safe_ location.

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#57

Post by wonderwonder »

henrikschroder wrote: post #42
pilarphosol wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is a low trust society, because of all the poverty. You really notice the difference if you travel to Europe. It turns out that having half of the population be economically unsafe makes everyone and everything unsafe.

I made the same observation when I moved to the US, it was so weird to me that SF the city is pretty much devoid of children. They're all effectively locked up and prohibited from roaming. No-one trusts children, no-one trusts adults around children, no-one trusts strangers. But I went skiing in Lake Tahoe one weekend, and suddenly all of that disappeared. Suddenly, you have children freely interacting with strangers…

SF is full of mentally ill homeless people and drug addicts. Some literally camping in the doorways of homes. It's also covered in vomit and human feces. No way I would let my kids run around unsupervised there

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#58

Post by itronitron »

vuln wrote: post #27

This law will not give "poor kids more independence", it absolves the parent or guardian of legal responsibility for their children being unsupervised. I can't be the only one that's seen the hundreds if not THOUSANDS of children (under 18) fighting, causing mayhem, attacking innocent people, and property destruction videos that circulate all over the internet. Will this help edge cases? The mom working at the pizza…

I understand your concern and feel that part of the problem is that in many areas in the US it's not comfortable or safe for adults to be out walking (unless they are with their dog.) The streets aren't set up for it, the police think it's weird behavior, and as a result people stay inside which means there is less adult supervision for the children out in public.

If you ever visit Europe you can expect to have your mind blown as you will see nine year olds walking themselves to school, taking public transit independently, as the norm. This works because there are always adults out and about.

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#59

Post by gretch »

notch898a wrote: post #50
pilarphosol wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is a low trust society, because of all the poverty. You really notice the difference if you travel to Europe. It turns out that having half of the population be economically unsafe makes everyone and everything unsafe.

The people living in poverty very very rarely hurt a stranger's children. It's the cops who show up and take them, absolutely destroying their sense of security and growing independence.

This is very false.

National studies show more violent crime happens in poor areas: https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/hpnvv0812.pdf

Re: Making It Legal to Play Outside: “Reasonable Childhood Independence” Bills

#60

Post by jefftk »

HDThoreaun wrote: post #43
henrikschroder wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made the same observation when I moved to the US, it was so weird to me that SF the city is pretty much devoid of children. They're all effectively locked up and prohibited from roaming. No-one trusts children, no-one trusts adults around children, no-one trusts strangers. But I went skiing in Lake Tahoe one weekend, and suddenly all of that disappeared. Suddenly, you have children freely interacting with strangers…

SF is actually a city that is devoid of children. They're not hidden, they just don't exist because housing is too expensive. People with kids mostly leave.

It's low but not zero. SF is 13% under 18, compared to 29% nationally.
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