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Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

jonathanhaidt.substack.com

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Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#621

Post by fleddr »

civilized wrote: post #588
fleddr wrote: post #491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"We" as in a total society or specifically as men do not stack any of these specific expectations on young girls. Young girls do this to each other. The influencers are girls and followed by girls. Instagram is girl territory and all the social gossip around it is girls. They're not trying to win boys' approval, instead girls' approval. Social ranking amidst young girls is natural behavior, what changed is that the l…

Indeed, I am glad someone said this. The myopic GP analysis, characterizing young women as victims of murky cultural dynamics, is decades out of date at this point, and does not consider the complex real-world experiences and tremendous personal agency of these women. I think the supposed "mid-century traditionalists" have a keener appreciation of that agency.

To simplify the reasoning about this dynamic, I call it the duck lip effect.

At what point did "society" ask for duck lips? Where exactly did specifically men ask for it and actively select for it? If anything, they widely reject it. The expectation for duck lips does not exist, it was spontaneously fabricated by female influencers and that puts the idea and "expectation" in young girls' heads.

In other words, for as a long as we richly reward female influencers setting exactly the wrong example and being awful role models, this carries on.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#622

Post by fleddr »

_carbyau_ wrote: post #554
fleddr wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm childless so it may come across as arrogant to give any advise. One thing I learned from observing the teenagers of my friends is that they don't want this either. We're adults and talking and a bunch of kids sit in a row on the couch, playing with their iPads. For hours on end. And yet they hear everything you say. They're paying attention. And when you show a genuine interest them just by asking a few question,…

While I like your comment I would also couch it in a context that I'd guess most parents are familiar with. How your kids act when "outsiders/non-family" are around can be different. Simply the fact you are NOT from the immediate so-intimately-familiar-they-know-the-smell-of-your-farts family means that what you say and do has novelty and therefore engagement right there. Even if you are a friend who drops by every d…

Very fair point and agree.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#623

Post by fleddr »

unrealp wrote: post #607
fleddr wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm childless so it may come across as arrogant to give any advise. One thing I learned from observing the teenagers of my friends is that they don't want this either. We're adults and talking and a bunch of kids sit in a row on the couch, playing with their iPads. For hours on end. And yet they hear everything you say. They're paying attention. And when you show a genuine interest them just by asking a few question,…

I think addiction is about meaning. Addiction activities are always meaningful activities. May not be pleasurable activities but always meaningful. To quit a meaningful activity, you need to replace with another meaningful activity. like exercise, help someone, do something good..whatever is meaningful to you.

"Addiction activities are always meaningful activities."

Craziest take on addiction ever.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#624

Post by civilized »

fleddr wrote: post #621
civilized wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed, I am glad someone said this. The myopic GP analysis, characterizing young women as victims of murky cultural dynamics, is decades out of date at this point, and does not consider the complex real-world experiences and tremendous personal agency of these women. I think the supposed "mid-century traditionalists" have a keener appreciation of that agency.

To simplify the reasoning about this dynamic, I call it the duck lip effect. At what point did "society" ask for duck lips? Where exactly did specifically men ask for it and actively select for it? If anything, they widely reject it. The expectation for duck lips does not exist, it was spontaneously fabricated by female influencers and that puts the idea and "expectation" in young girls' heads. In other words, for as…

I think if you put ten random women in a house for a week, you're going to get girl drama and pictures of duck lips. Just like if you put ten random men in a house for a week, you're going to get wrestling and videos of Jackass stunts.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#625

Post by raxxorraxor »

throwaway2474 wrote: post #605
warner25 wrote: post #2

I'm still reading it, but this is great so far. As a father to four little girls, though, it makes me feel really defeated. I can already see that social media has eroded my wife's mental health. I just don't know what to do in the next few years when our girls approach the age when everyone else will get an iPhone and have an Instagram account. I want to say no, but that leads to many other issues, including what th…

Controversial take: why not teach your daughters to embrace and win at the social media game? It’s not going away, and being able to successfully navigate that world is going to be a tangible advantage to them later in life. Self worth and happiness, despite what we might want to believe, are largely tied to social status. As parents it may be kinder to help our kids succeed at the game rather than pretend it doesn’t…

It isn't universal. Some want to become superstars and famous and some do not. Acceptance with your position in society is more conductive to happiness.

But social media very strongly underlines another reality. Not everyone can become a star, stardom is often very short lived, stars may not be the happiest people, fans might not be the nicest. Those smart enough to last a long time in public would probably be able to tell you a lot about necessary the sacrifices too.

But the fear of missing something or being left out is probably exactly what drives anxiety, especially in those that might have a bit more self-awareness.

Parents could support social media use, of course, but I would compare that to putting children up for a beauty contest.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#626

Post by raxxorraxor »

Alex3917 wrote: post #617
sibeliuss wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You clearly didn't read the article, because what they wrote mostly about was... Instagram.

Which looks and feels like Facebook.

And is owned by Facebook.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#627

Post by juve1996 »

krageon wrote: post #606
juve1996 wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How else is she supposed to reach out to her friends if she can't use a phone?

By talking and physical proximity. It's not easier, but it's also not exactly hard if you go to the same school.

School only covers part of the day. You don't always see all your friends (some share different class schedules). This doesn't cover the weekend. And it doesn't cover changing plans or adhoc after school plans.

I just don't see how someone can be shocked that their daughter couldn't make plans after they took away the prominent communication device everyone uses. It isn't like when we grew up and you'd call the landline or get on your bike and knock on your friend's door.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#628

Post by alexpetralia »

colonCapitalDee wrote: post #217
8f2ab37a-ed6c wrote: post #9

I wonder if online dating tends to lead to similar impacts to mental health for some groups of people as social media does to teen girls. Just like in Haidt's examples, it's impersonal, phone-based, leading to constant social comparison, feelings of rejection, ostracism and ghosting. I wouldn't be shocked if a few years from now research came out showing that it has similar effects to adults, but they're just better…

I tried Tinder (and Hinge) as an average looking guy and found it to be dehumanizing. I rarely got matches, the matches I got usually didn't respond to my messages, and even when they did I could tell they weren't invested in the interaction. I've got a great job, a decent face, I work out, I've got friends, family, hobbies, and passions. I genuinely like myself; I'm satisfied with my life and my personal development…

Keep in mind the idea that you should be going on oodles of dates also comes from media and social media. Take your time.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#629

Post by xbar »

watwut wrote: post #254
xbar wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am completely convinced that international violence does not now, nor has it ever, caused much depression in US-based 12-year-old girls. Further, I find the notion that it is was an increasing trend from 2010 to 2022 compared with 2001 to 2010 is maximally revisionist. Same for political polarization (sidebar: the notion that political polarization is an "other...factor" outside of social media seems poorly conside…

There was no coup in 2001

That's true. Nor has there been one since.

But there was a major terror attack after a controversial election where the victor had half-a-million fewer votes than the loser. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_United_States_presidentia...

Then there was a war. And CNN became a thing 24 hours a day. And then a 2nd war. And then there was a Great Recession, blamed entirely on one party or the other, depending on whom you asked.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#630

Post by raxxorraxor »

lsy wrote: post #185

I think it's somewhat important to ask why this effect is more observable for girls than for boys, and Haidt does not seem to really reflect on that. Social media in and of itself is really just an accelerant for the particular set of social expectations we stack on girls and women around appearance and how that relates to self-worth. Boys have more capacity to transcend social media's focus on image and beauty by fi…

This isn't about appreciation. Platforms that boys more often frequent are also often less toxic. They tend to be more vulgar perhaps, but there is a difference. Although that differentiation seems to be too much for many as some even suggested we need to end anonymity. Not a good idea. Some platforms have distinct demographics that favor one gender or the other and their focus is different.

Even platforms like 4chan or reddit are less toxic in a way because they are more impersonal. That is a huge difference compared to social media where you need to present yourself and people compare themselves to each other, a main source of social pressure. One kind of platform is centered around topics, the other kind is centered around people. Twitter is perhaps a mix in between.

Do you believe the common users on a platform primarily consisting of boys do value other users more? In a way that might even be true, but it certainly isn't about the appreciation of those you communicate with.

Granted, some equations change for public figures. There is a reason there are PR agencies for that and that was even before social media.

Girls tend to impose expectations on each other. There isn't some "traditional authority" who does so. Who would that be exactly? The parents? For teenage girls?

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