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LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night

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Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night

#231

Post by agravier »

_dan wrote: post #223
londons_explore wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am disappointed that many phones/tablets don't go very dim. From flagship to cheap, it seems that if you're in a pitch black room and check the time on your phone, the light will illuminate the whole room, even on the dimmest setting. I actually modded my phone by putting a resistor in the LED backlight circuit, which divided the brightness by 1000 - and it was still plenty bright at night (human eyes are logarithm…

A Macbook's minimum brightness is quite bright. The thing that annoys me no end is that if you hit the "dim" button when it's at minimum brightness, it goes black - but fades out slowly and smoothly. So they're clearly capable of being dimmer, but Apple decided we're not allowed that.

I've been using https://lunar.fyi/ to go below the min brightness and also beyond the max brightness on an M1, works very well.

Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night

#232

Post by ilyt »

forgetfreeman wrote: post #176
rudolph9 wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think OPs point is people tendency to use LEDs in way that is bad for melatonin production is not the same as LEDs being inherently bad for melatonin production as the title suggests. Many LEDs have fine color spectrum and brightness setting and people should take those capabilities into mind when purchasing, especially for lights they will be using in the evening. Personally I’ve invested in hue lights and have th…

Right but this is a false dichotomy, LEDs are both inherently bad AND put to uses that enhances their detrimental characteristics.

Uh, just no. LED lighting have modes of working that can be bad. You just need to be way more picky and knowledgable with LED lights which is hard for most customers, vs "just buy an incandesent bulb"

Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night

#233

Post by shanebellone »

londons_explore wrote: post #185
koverda wrote: post #107

Regarding the quoted e-book study: > Third, in the present study, the LE-eBook was set to maximum brightness throughout the 4-h reading session, whereas, by comparison, the print-book condition consisted of reflected exposure to very dim light. Yeah, max brightness is probably going to make an impact. I bet if you were in a room with a bright light reading a book, with an equivalent amount of lumens going into your e…

I am disappointed that many phones/tablets don't go very dim. From flagship to cheap, it seems that if you're in a pitch black room and check the time on your phone, the light will illuminate the whole room, even on the dimmest setting. I actually modded my phone by putting a resistor in the LED backlight circuit, which divided the brightness by 1000 - and it was still plenty bright at night (human eyes are logarithm…

The Google Pixel has a number of settings for this. It has the standard slider, extra dim, night, and grayscale modes.

I always laugh when I see competition over brightness. I cannot wait for e-ink monitors to improve and wish someone would make an e-ink phone.

Edit: Those settings might be standard on Android and not actually Pixel specific.

Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night

#234

Post by moduspol »

I'm curious if some of the downsides of evening blue light could be mitigated with an increase in daytime blue light. It's all about the rhythm, right?

I work from home and got one of these monsters [1] to have on in my office during the day to help avoid the winter / darker time slump, and I think it's helped. I only run it during daytime working hours, in my office.

I avoid staring at my phone around bedtime and my sleep patterns are fine--I'd just hate to shift away from LEDs. I'm careful about choosing virtually only "warm white" ones, though as the article notes, that's not as bulletproof as I originally thought. Is the increased blue light spectrum fundamental to LEDs? Or something we could potentially solve with a film or filter (at manufacturing time or later)?

[1] https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08DY1GCC6/

Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night

#235

Post by Tade0 »

fwlr wrote: post #134

Those “color vision correcting” glasses (e.g. EnChroma) use an optical technology called notch filtering: “EnChroma glasses are spectral notch filters that remove light from two regions of the visible spectrum: from the region near 480 to 490 nm (in the blue–green part of the spectrum) and from the region near 580 to 590 nm (in the orange–yellow part of the spectrum).” https://www.practiceupdate.com/content/the-effec…

I did some digging and notch/bandpass filters are on the expensive side, but you can buy sheets of lowpass filters for a reasonable price:

https://www.ocushield.com/products/anti-blue-light-filter-la...

I would just form a cylindrical lampshade out of such a sheet and call it a day.

My bedroom has a dimmable, multi-colored LED in a cloth lampshade that definitely filters some blue light and it's possible to sleep with it on, so I guess the inexpensive, low-tech solution, as it's often the case, works just as well.

Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night

#236

Post by manmal »

koverda wrote: post #107

Regarding the quoted e-book study: > Third, in the present study, the LE-eBook was set to maximum brightness throughout the 4-h reading session, whereas, by comparison, the print-book condition consisted of reflected exposure to very dim light. Yeah, max brightness is probably going to make an impact. I bet if you were in a room with a bright light reading a book, with an equivalent amount of lumens going into your e…

Dimmable LEDs usually dim via PWM, which might in itself pose a problem for brain health. Best to buy bulbs that are dimmed out of the box.

Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night

#237

Post by washadjeffmad »

shanebellone wrote: post #233
londons_explore wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am disappointed that many phones/tablets don't go very dim. From flagship to cheap, it seems that if you're in a pitch black room and check the time on your phone, the light will illuminate the whole room, even on the dimmest setting. I actually modded my phone by putting a resistor in the LED backlight circuit, which divided the brightness by 1000 - and it was still plenty bright at night (human eyes are logarithm…

The Google Pixel has a number of settings for this. It has the standard slider, extra dim, night, and grayscale modes. I always laugh when I see competition over brightness. I cannot wait for e-ink monitors to improve and wish someone would make an e-ink phone. Edit: Those settings might be standard on Android and not actually Pixel specific.

I keep Extra Dim on at all times to lower the peak nits and to further dim the screen when using Night Light to read after dark.

The biggest saviors to my longtime night reading habits, though, have been OLED and how many websites and ebook apps have competent true black dark modes.

Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night

#238

Post by grvdrm »

jakedata wrote: post #17

I am a big fan of LEDs but the strobe effect is maddening and it only gets worse as they are dimmed. AC power crosses zero volts with every cycle so you need a driver circuit that can compensate. Most don't do a good job and I have replaced bulbs and dimmers multiple times to come up with something acceptable. At the family camp, I retired my kerosene and propane mantle lamps in favor of solar battery powered LEDs ma…

Interesting comment. I have a number of MR16 bulbs in my house that were previously halogen and are now mostly LED. They are a near constant source of frustration with bulbs burning out way too soon, some with what seems like wiring issues, a mix of incompatible switches, etc.

Curious to hear what acceptable solution you derived?

Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night

#239

Post by washadjeffmad »

maxerickson wrote: post #227
londons_explore wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am disappointed that many phones/tablets don't go very dim. From flagship to cheap, it seems that if you're in a pitch black room and check the time on your phone, the light will illuminate the whole room, even on the dimmest setting. I actually modded my phone by putting a resistor in the LED backlight circuit, which divided the brightness by 1000 - and it was still plenty bright at night (human eyes are logarithm…

Some of it is probably adaptive vision. My Pixel 6 with an OLED screen doesn't work very good as a walking light in a dark room.

Also a Pixel owner - Try wiggling the light as you walk.

Your motion sensing kicks in before either your focus or dark vision, and even if you can't "see" it, your brain can get enough information to let you navigate.

Re: LED lighting badly suppresses human melatonin production at night

#240

Post by balfirevic »

bschne wrote: post #146
koverda wrote: post #107

Regarding the quoted e-book study: > Third, in the present study, the LE-eBook was set to maximum brightness throughout the 4-h reading session, whereas, by comparison, the print-book condition consisted of reflected exposure to very dim light. Yeah, max brightness is probably going to make an impact. I bet if you were in a room with a bright light reading a book, with an equivalent amount of lumens going into your e…

Wasn't that also the study where the ebook condition used an iPad, not an e-Ink reader?

Yes, the study [0] used iPads (on maximum brightness).

Some releveant quotes:

"The randomized, crossover protocol design consisted of two conditions: (i) reading an LE-eBook (iPad; Apple Inc., Cupertino, CA) in otherwise very dim room light for ∼4 h before bedtime for five consecutive evenings, and (ii) reading printed books in the same very dim room light for ∼4 h before bedtime for five consecutive evenings."

"Third, in the present study, the LE-eBook was set to maximum brightness throughout the 4-h reading session, whereas, by comparison, the print-book condition consisted of reflected exposure to very dim light."

"Lastly, although the short-wavelength light from the LEeBook may have been responsible for the effects reported here, this study did not include a light-emitting device with longer wavelength for comparison, so our findings may be due to the difference in irradiance level rather than spectral composition."

[0] - https://www.pnas.org/doi/pdf/10.1073/pnas.1418490112

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