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The dystopian underworld of South Africa’s illegal gold mines

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Re: The dystopian underworld of South Africa’s illegal gold mines

#91

Post by mrburkins »

boeingUH60 wrote: post #23
wonderwonder wrote: post #19

Was a well written article. Pretty amazing contrast in the way various people are forced to live. While obviously not great for black people during apartheid South Africa's government really fell apart afterwards. Hiv infection rates rose from 3% to 18% of the adult population. Top 10 in the world for murder rates. 30% unemployment rate. Rolling blackouts. Afrikaans Paramilitary groups. Massive organized criminal org…

I've always wondered why there's no black-majority country that's prosperous...it's always the same story of corruption, incompetence, and/or infighting. Now, before anyone brings out the pitchforks, I'm a black African residing in Nigeria...I'm just saying that we really have to do better than this.

How many majority black countries were afforded the opportunity to grow up unmolested by great powers during their formative post colonial years?

How many once in a generation leaders were assassinated or deposed in favor of brutal yet capital friendly regimes?

America, with all its cultural heritage of Washington, Hamilton, Jefferson and Lincoln barely survived the 1960’s due to political assassinations. It’s hard to expect younger nations to fair better.

Re: The dystopian underworld of South Africa’s illegal gold mines

#92

Post by dsfyu404ed »

mc32 wrote: post #73
olau wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it takes generations for the right culture to develop. If you look back at early Western large-scale democracies (as opposed to the historic smaller scale Greek ones), most of them weren't all roses for the first couple of generations.

I think this is right. We see similar phenomenon in Russia and Ukraine. There are flashes of democracy sometimes but then they revert back to what they've always known. In the case of Russia/Ukraine it's the legacy of feudalism + strong ruler syndrome which was coopted by communism and which they still have not emerged from.

Things can only move forward so fast. Look at the French and Russian revolutions. It didn't take long for things to revert to autocratic strongman type governments but there was some progress that stuck.

Re: The dystopian underworld of South Africa’s illegal gold mines

#93

Post by andrei_says_ »

boeingUH60 wrote: post #23
wonderwonder wrote: post #19

Was a well written article. Pretty amazing contrast in the way various people are forced to live. While obviously not great for black people during apartheid South Africa's government really fell apart afterwards. Hiv infection rates rose from 3% to 18% of the adult population. Top 10 in the world for murder rates. 30% unemployment rate. Rolling blackouts. Afrikaans Paramilitary groups. Massive organized criminal org…

I've always wondered why there's no black-majority country that's prosperous...it's always the same story of corruption, incompetence, and/or infighting. Now, before anyone brings out the pitchforks, I'm a black African residing in Nigeria...I'm just saying that we really have to do better than this.

Isn’t Senegal in a much better state than your example? Asking because I don’t know enough to be sure.

Also, they have other common aspects - apart from being in Africa and having black population.

Decades of colonialism, constant disruption and malicious interference from multiple powerful governments ought to count for something.

Remember, Russia single handedly influenced culture, politics, and elections in the US, just with the means of social media.

Re: The dystopian underworld of South Africa’s illegal gold mines

#94

Post by tharne »

concordDance wrote: post #24
jeffwask wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we don't continue apartheid, where will we get billionaires to buy social media companies and run them into the ground as a political stunt?

Are you saying that Musk somehow inherited $44 billion from his still-living father's stake in an Emerald mine said father bought for under a $100k?

> Are you saying that Musk somehow inherited $44 billion from his still-living father's stake in an Emerald mine said father bought for under a $100k?

Are you trying to ruin someone's petulant rant with a simple statement of facts? But this is the internet!

Re: The dystopian underworld of South Africa’s illegal gold mines

#95

Post by grecy »

buyx wrote: post #86
grecy wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent three years driving around Africa, exploring the remote corners of thirty five countries and really sinking into the culture as much as possible. After six months I thought I knew a lot. Six month later I learned that was all rubbish and started again. And so on. I spent a few months in South Africa, and I felt less safe there than any other country on the continent. It is extremely edgy. I genuinely believe…

I think whites are going to be increasingly irrelevant in South Africa, and apart from the poor, the old, and ideologically motivated Afrikaners, I suspect that they are going to continue to emigrate in increasing numbers. Indians are already displacing them as the dominant minority in professional contexts, but they'll also start leaving for greener pastures. A focus on race-relations, in 2023, obscures the real iss…

I have a lot to learn.

> A focus on race-relations, in 2023, obscures the real issues plaguing South Africa, which, although in large part a legacy of apartheid, don't have to do with black-white relations.

What are the real issues?

Re: The dystopian underworld of South Africa’s illegal gold mines

#96

Post by fleddr »

tdeck wrote: post #84
fleddr wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On Twitter recently a Nigerian business man shared some of his frustrations which I found insightful. He started a bar. Yet later discovered that his business partner was reselling booze via the back door, pocketing this money for himself. Next, the business man started a transport business. Every driver he hired mysteriously got "robbed", which means they resold the fuel. They are just anecdotes, but if widespread,…

I gotta be honest, this post reads like "just driving by I knew how to fix all these peolles' problems but they seem too lazy to care". Is it possible there's something you don't know about each of these scenarios? It's easy to construct some self congratulatory narrative when you're visiting a poor country, but it's also a trap. In the past, these narratives tended to be biological. Now they're "cultural" but the ef…

Yes, I was wrong on all accounts. And even though locals will readily confirm and admit to these cultural issues and are equally frustrated by it, it's best to pretend they don't exist.

Because I said it. And obviously my only possible agenda can be rationalize a sense of superiority, it can't possibly because I care.

Re: The dystopian underworld of South Africa’s illegal gold mines

#97

Post by sangnoir »

boeingUH60 wrote: post #23
wonderwonder wrote: post #19

Was a well written article. Pretty amazing contrast in the way various people are forced to live. While obviously not great for black people during apartheid South Africa's government really fell apart afterwards. Hiv infection rates rose from 3% to 18% of the adult population. Top 10 in the world for murder rates. 30% unemployment rate. Rolling blackouts. Afrikaans Paramilitary groups. Massive organized criminal org…

I've always wondered why there's no black-majority country that's prosperous...it's always the same story of corruption, incompetence, and/or infighting. Now, before anyone brings out the pitchforks, I'm a black African residing in Nigeria...I'm just saying that we really have to do better than this.

How many black-majority countries were or are imperialist? External Imperialism does wonders for the prosperity of the home country.

I ought to ask this on /r/AskHistorians

Re: The dystopian underworld of South Africa’s illegal gold mines

#98

Post by buyx »

grecy wrote: post #95
buyx wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think whites are going to be increasingly irrelevant in South Africa, and apart from the poor, the old, and ideologically motivated Afrikaners, I suspect that they are going to continue to emigrate in increasing numbers. Indians are already displacing them as the dominant minority in professional contexts, but they'll also start leaving for greener pastures. A focus on race-relations, in 2023, obscures the real iss…

I have a lot to learn. > A focus on race-relations, in 2023, obscures the real issues plaguing South Africa, which, although in large part a legacy of apartheid, don't have to do with black-white relations. What are the real issues?

Corruption, an incompetent civil service stuffed with political appointees, terrible education system, open borders (sorry, but it's a fact....you can't have huge unemployment and open borders with large numbers of undocumented people who are willing to work with no protections and below minimum wage - as per the article ), constrained electricity supply and constrained infrastructure due to a neoliberal obsession with paying down debt in the 1990-2004 period, instead of investing.

Re: The dystopian underworld of South Africa’s illegal gold mines

#99

Post by opportune »

wonderwonder wrote: post #59
dan-robertson wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps one thing to say is that not that many countries developed in general in the last hundred years or so, depending on how you count them. It seems there isn’t really an easy path to development and many African countries started a very poor quite recently without the smoothest transition out of colonialism. You might count a few Caribbean countries for your initial question, eg the Bahamas is 90% black and has…

The Bahamas is successful essentially because it's a subsidiary of the US. With 80% of it's economy based on tourism and most of the rest on financial services for people that want lee way. If cruise ships stopped going there the island would collapse in a few months.

There is tourism in Africa and there could potentially be a lot more of it, if there were more infrastructure and less social/political problems.

It’s not that hard for me to get to Dakar or Windhoek as it is, and I could certainly see myself enjoying those destinations if there were more to do

Re: The dystopian underworld of South Africa’s illegal gold mines

#100

Post by ngc248 »

boeingUH60 wrote: post #23
wonderwonder wrote: post #19

Was a well written article. Pretty amazing contrast in the way various people are forced to live. While obviously not great for black people during apartheid South Africa's government really fell apart afterwards. Hiv infection rates rose from 3% to 18% of the adult population. Top 10 in the world for murder rates. 30% unemployment rate. Rolling blackouts. Afrikaans Paramilitary groups. Massive organized criminal org…

I've always wondered why there's no black-majority country that's prosperous...it's always the same story of corruption, incompetence, and/or infighting. Now, before anyone brings out the pitchforks, I'm a black African residing in Nigeria...I'm just saying that we really have to do better than this.

I feel its because there are so many different tribes/groups, each fighting for power with others. The old tribalism never went away, its just reflected in the government now.
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