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The dystopian underworld of South Africa’s illegal gold mines

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Re: The dystopian underworld of South Africa’s illegal gold mines

#51

Post by prmph »

boeingUH60 wrote: post #23
wonderwonder wrote: post #19

Was a well written article. Pretty amazing contrast in the way various people are forced to live. While obviously not great for black people during apartheid South Africa's government really fell apart afterwards. Hiv infection rates rose from 3% to 18% of the adult population. Top 10 in the world for murder rates. 30% unemployment rate. Rolling blackouts. Afrikaans Paramilitary groups. Massive organized criminal org…

I've always wondered why there's no black-majority country that's prosperous...it's always the same story of corruption, incompetence, and/or infighting. Now, before anyone brings out the pitchforks, I'm a black African residing in Nigeria...I'm just saying that we really have to do better than this.

Botswana and Rwanda seems to be countries with lower levels of corruption and reasonably good or improving public services.

Ghana too was doing well in the last decade, but now has taken a turn for the worse since the current government took over. I live in Ghana, and the level of corruption now, and the neglect of a proper development agenda, is unbelievable.

So, I don’t think there is necessarily anything that makes black-majority countries incapable of curbing corruption.

Re: The dystopian underworld of South Africa’s illegal gold mines

#52

Post by olau »

boeingUH60 wrote: post #23
wonderwonder wrote: post #19

Was a well written article. Pretty amazing contrast in the way various people are forced to live. While obviously not great for black people during apartheid South Africa's government really fell apart afterwards. Hiv infection rates rose from 3% to 18% of the adult population. Top 10 in the world for murder rates. 30% unemployment rate. Rolling blackouts. Afrikaans Paramilitary groups. Massive organized criminal org…

I've always wondered why there's no black-majority country that's prosperous...it's always the same story of corruption, incompetence, and/or infighting. Now, before anyone brings out the pitchforks, I'm a black African residing in Nigeria...I'm just saying that we really have to do better than this.

I think it takes generations for the right culture to develop.

If you look back at early Western large-scale democracies (as opposed to the historic smaller scale Greek ones), most of them weren't all roses for the first couple of generations.

Re: The dystopian underworld of South Africa’s illegal gold mines

#53

Post by dan-robertson »

boeingUH60 wrote: post #23
wonderwonder wrote: post #19

Was a well written article. Pretty amazing contrast in the way various people are forced to live. While obviously not great for black people during apartheid South Africa's government really fell apart afterwards. Hiv infection rates rose from 3% to 18% of the adult population. Top 10 in the world for murder rates. 30% unemployment rate. Rolling blackouts. Afrikaans Paramilitary groups. Massive organized criminal org…

I've always wondered why there's no black-majority country that's prosperous...it's always the same story of corruption, incompetence, and/or infighting. Now, before anyone brings out the pitchforks, I'm a black African residing in Nigeria...I'm just saying that we really have to do better than this.

Perhaps one thing to say is that not that many countries developed in general in the last hundred years or so, depending on how you count them. It seems there isn’t really an easy path to development and many African countries started a very poor quite recently without the smoothest transition out of colonialism.

You might count a few Caribbean countries for your initial question, eg the Bahamas is 90% black and has similar per-capita gdp to Poland (a lower hdi though). But maybe it’s easier to be this developed if you’re a small country (population 400k).

Re: The dystopian underworld of South Africa’s illegal gold mines

#54

Post by texaslonghorn5 »

concordDance wrote: post #31
gowld wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Where the heck did you get the idea this is restricted to black majority countries? Like, check out the history of Poland some time. The European powers generally conquered, colonised or bullied wherever they could. Some countries like Vietnam recovered well, others like Ethiopia did not.

> Europeans have a nasty habit of ravaging any black-majority country that tries to build anything.

"Where the heck" did you see the above poster mention restricted?

Re: The dystopian underworld of South Africa’s illegal gold mines

#55

Post by concordDance »

texaslonghorn5 wrote: post #54
concordDance wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where the heck did you get the idea this is restricted to black majority countries? Like, check out the history of Poland some time. The European powers generally conquered, colonised or bullied wherever they could. Some countries like Vietnam recovered well, others like Ethiopia did not.

> Europeans have a nasty habit of ravaging any black-majority country that tries to build anything. "Where the heck" did you see the above poster mention restricted?

That post was in the context of asking why black majority countries have done less well than other countries.

Re: The dystopian underworld of South Africa’s illegal gold mines

#56

Post by buyx »

X6S1x6Okd1st wrote: post #29
wonderwonder wrote: post #19

Was a well written article. Pretty amazing contrast in the way various people are forced to live. While obviously not great for black people during apartheid South Africa's government really fell apart afterwards. Hiv infection rates rose from 3% to 18% of the adult population. Top 10 in the world for murder rates. 30% unemployment rate. Rolling blackouts. Afrikaans Paramilitary groups. Massive organized criminal org…

Really odd to draw the line at before apartheid and after. Jacob Zuma's reign was really a clear sign of corruption hitting an extremely high level & he did things like say I took a shower after so I wouldn't get AIDs. My layman understanding is that the ANC's dominance of politics enabled extreme corruption to take place. It does look like they've finally started to lose hold

Zuma may have acted like a shower could prevent AIDS, but he also oversaw the rollout of anti-retroviral drugs that pushed life expectancy up.

In fact, that was one of the reasons why he was elevated to power: Thabo Mbeki’s AIDS denialism led to huge numbers of deaths, and his political downfall in the ANC.

I’d say the real issue is not the ANC’s electoral dominance, but the party’s practice of Democratic Centralism, which allows the leader unfettered control. I would guess the closest modern analogue would be the Chinese Communist Party.

Zuma was allowed to loot the country, along with his cronies because of this, just as Mbeki was allowed to practice his AIDS denialism.

As you said, the ANC’s power is eroding, but until there’s electoral reform, to make MPs independent of party bosses, South African democracy will always be at risk of being captured by nefarious actors.

Re: The dystopian underworld of South Africa’s illegal gold mines

#57

Post by texaslonghorn5 »

concordDance wrote: post #55
texaslonghorn5 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Europeans have a nasty habit of ravaging any black-majority country that tries to build anything. "Where the heck" did you see the above poster mention restricted?

That post was in the context of asking why black majority countries have done less well than other countries.

fair, my fault for misreading

Re: The dystopian underworld of South Africa’s illegal gold mines

#58

Post by liampulles »

concordDance wrote: post #21
wonderwonder wrote: post #19

Was a well written article. Pretty amazing contrast in the way various people are forced to live. While obviously not great for black people during apartheid South Africa's government really fell apart afterwards. Hiv infection rates rose from 3% to 18% of the adult population. Top 10 in the world for murder rates. 30% unemployment rate. Rolling blackouts. Afrikaans Paramilitary groups. Massive organized criminal org…

Do you think South Africans would be better off today if there had been no attempt to apolish apartheid? Genuine question, not a gotcha.

(South African here) I think so. It has to be better than living under a state which regards you as something less than human.

Re: The dystopian underworld of South Africa’s illegal gold mines

#59

Post by wonderwonder »

dan-robertson wrote: post #53
boeingUH60 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always wondered why there's no black-majority country that's prosperous...it's always the same story of corruption, incompetence, and/or infighting. Now, before anyone brings out the pitchforks, I'm a black African residing in Nigeria...I'm just saying that we really have to do better than this.

Perhaps one thing to say is that not that many countries developed in general in the last hundred years or so, depending on how you count them. It seems there isn’t really an easy path to development and many African countries started a very poor quite recently without the smoothest transition out of colonialism. You might count a few Caribbean countries for your initial question, eg the Bahamas is 90% black and has…

The Bahamas is successful essentially because it's a subsidiary of the US. With 80% of it's economy based on tourism and most of the rest on financial services for people that want lee way. If cruise ships stopped going there the island would collapse in a few months.

Re: The dystopian underworld of South Africa’s illegal gold mines

#60

Post by mandmandam »

r3trohack3r wrote: post #18
jeffwask wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we don't continue apartheid, where will we get billionaires to buy social media companies and run them into the ground as a political stunt?

I assume this is in reference to Elon Musk. That story is bunk. https://www.snopes.com/news/2022/11/17/elon-musk-emerald-min...

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