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Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

jonathanhaidt.substack.com

191–200 of 689 posts

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#191
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Amish kinda slap, they didn't invent addictive social media, put a game show host in charge of nuclear weapons, or have a bunch of corporations change their icons to rainbow icons while still being shitty. They literally realized 300 years ago that they should opt out of the nonsense America descended into

I know that's meant to be funny, but the Amish community is a nightmare, from the outside looking in, very closely. I live in an area where there is a large Amish community; they outnumber "English" about 4:1. Patriarchy in all decisions. The old men make choices for families based on what they know is best, and you follow that rule, regardless of your own views. Women are not allowed a voice in formal decisions. Chi…

>Patriarchy in all decisions. The old men make choices for families based on what they know is best

Is this not a thing where you are? Americans(and I am one) speak much about patriarchy but still uphold it strongly. Even countries like Indonesia and Pakistan have already elected female leaders. I see people say things like this, and yet many American women would still call it a patriarchy in every sense.

>Children are a tradable commodity.

? That's kind of a huge accusation and I'm not sure what it means. That could also be describing surrogacy which is widely accepted in our society.

>If you upset an elder, your life is over.

This is true in a lot of places-- including the US senate-- and is often the result of power concentrating in the hands of those with the most tenure. While they may lean on this more in their culture, it's still not exactly unrecognizable behavior.

>You're raised speaking German first, so that you can "learn your heritage"

There are immigrants(and most European countries) that do that. It's hard to teach a second language once a child is speaking English with their peers. If you teach the non-english language first, it's easy for them to learn English as a second language in school where they'll pick it up naturally speaking with peers.

> If you are sent off to college for whatever reason (my neighbor was a college educated Amish; he was the legal representative for the community) they treat you like an outsider.

Sounds difficult. I won't deny there I'm sure there are peculiarities about their culture worth disagreeing with.

>Imagine being in your 30's, with just an 8th grade education, and your entire community, family, and support system turns their back on you and yours.

Doesn't this happen to trans youth all the time? Minus the education thing.

>But they get a pass, because their beards and hats look funny.

That's not why they're not discussed more often. It's because they mostly stick to themselves so people don't bother looking into their communities. This can happen with highly insular communities, it's not an excuse but it is what it is.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#192
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know that's meant to be funny, but the Amish community is a nightmare, from the outside looking in, very closely. I live in an area where there is a large Amish community; they outnumber "English" about 4:1. Patriarchy in all decisions. The old men make choices for families based on what they know is best, and you follow that rule, regardless of your own views. Women are not allowed a voice in formal decisions. Chi…

Some of this varies by the exact community and sect. But there are some good lessons in there too. Health-wise they are great, with some of the lowest costs, low chronic disease, and getting about double the recommended 10k steps per day. So we don't want to emulate them in every way, but we can take some lessons in certain areas. If you truly want resilient kids, that lifestyle will do it. Safety is another thing th…

"So we don't want to emulate them in every way, but we can take some lessons in certain areas."

Living tight as a community is probably what they are doing right, I "just" would use a different approach to power.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#193
post #2

I'm still reading it, but this is great so far. As a father to four little girls, though, it makes me feel really defeated. I can already see that social media has eroded my wife's mental health. I just don't know what to do in the next few years when our girls approach the age when everyone else will get an iPhone and have an Instagram account. I want to say no, but that leads to many other issues, including what th…

One strategy that should help is to load them up on extracurriculars. Keep them busy with extra math tutoring (russian school of math, kumon, etc.) and physically active in a healthy way with enough sleep (swimming, track, soccer). That way there is not a lot of dwell time to be depressed about missing out on stuff. Also taking away privileges due to not passing grades, not keeping up with math tutoring, etc. is a gr…

this is satire, surely?

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#195
post #87

I don't necessarily disagree with the conclusion, but the dismissal of other factors is insufficient: > Why did a measure of loneliness at school go up around the world only after 2012, as the global economy got better and better? The economy didn't get better for everyone, in fact inequality rose starkly; this might be a correlating factor. > It’s not because of the 9/11 attacks, wars in the middle east, or school s…

> people in Western societies don’t kill themselves because of wars or collective threats

The dozens of French white teens who joined the war in Syria in 2015.

The thousands of English teens who freely enrolled against Franco, the dictator who took over Spain in 1936, while they absolutely didn’t have to, as it was not part of the conscription? And if, once there, they deserted, they were legible for the death penalty.

While underage. Indeed, many examples of teens engaging into collective theoretical threats.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotal, but dating apps sure helped crush the self-esteem of my sister. She still gets on them occasionally, because there's no alternative now. Guys in the post-#metoo era just won't approach a girl at a bar the way they used to.

> Guys in the post-#metoo era just won't approach a girl at a bar the way they used to. Bars were not a good place to find dates decades ago either. That’s more of a tired movie trope. The bigger issue is that people just don’t seem to get out and do things as much as they did in the time before we all had unlimited entertainment options at our fingertips from the comfort of home. As soon as you do break the cycle an…

[dead]

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is really baffling to me, because social media sites have an age limit of 13 in most western countries. ...and this is by the companies themselves, if they are found out to be "marketing to children", they get hit with a whole another set of legal issues. Epic just got hit with this because of Fortnite and has to pay over $200M fines. The only issue is that there is zero oversight on the age limit, there is no w…

You definitely can report an underage user.

I tried to do it on WhatsApp (age limit 16 in the EU), but guess what?

You can only report YOUR OWN CHILD: https://faq.whatsapp.com/695318248185629

Other Meta properties are better at this though.

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#198

Here's a question I don't know the answer to. How does an already depressed and dysphoric trans person --- who doesn't know they're trans --- with unsupportive parents ever, ever find out what the cause of their depression is without a robust network of connection to people from elsewhere? Let's assume they live in a deeply rural area in which variant sexualities and genders are frowned upon. They are the only person…

Most of them grow out of it.[1][2]

[1] https://www.kqed.org/futureofyou/441784/the-controversial-re...

[2] https://statsforgender.org/desistance/

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#199

I keep saying it every time and there are no good faith arguments to not do it, what we need is: - Make social media illegal to underage kids, just like tobacco or alcohol - Enforcement through ID verification of every user (would solve the bot problem as well) - Jail terms for executives of social media companies who fail to enforce these rules and protect children from harmful content

Of course there are good faith arguments, you probably just don't agree with them. The most convincing argument is that I don't want social media companies to have access to my ID. Remember, even websites like HN and Pornhub would need to verify your age with your ID.

Having nearly every site require government ID for access would be a pretty grim end to the arc of de-anonymization that started with Facebook's "real name" requirement. Do we truly value social media as a product and an industry more than our privacy/anonymity?

Re: Social media is a cause, not a correlate, of mental illness in teen girls

#200
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think he's trying to simplify it for a general audience, vs putting out an academic paper that might be discussed and nodded over, only to be misrepresented or over-simplified in health/science reporting and largely ignored. I don't fully agree with his argument and have said so before (briefly, I think it overlooks other major contextual factors like increasing international violence and political polarization tha…

I am completely convinced that international violence does not now, nor has it ever, caused much depression in US-based 12-year-old girls. Further, I find the notion that it is was an increasing trend from 2010 to 2022 compared with 2001 to 2010 is maximally revisionist. Same for political polarization (sidebar: the notion that political polarization is an "other...factor" outside of social media seems poorly conside…

You seem bent on having an argument. I think the post-9/11 atmosphere of the US being at war and the polarization that semi-independently ramped up over the same period are both important background factors, which themselves were amplified by social media and network interconnectivity. Public discourse has become more violent and confrontational over that time vs 25 years ago, and I think there is some relationship between depression and the tone of public discourse.
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