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The US Supreme Court doesn’t understand the internet

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Re: The US Supreme Court doesn’t understand the internet

#21
post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is mandating cyberstalking access going to solve anything?

One of the first challenges was the Zeran v. American Online case where a business owner was harmed but was never able to compel AOL to provide the identity of the person creating the harmful content. Forcing platforms to provide identity information in pursuit of legal action would allow action against the formally anonymous poster. As it stands today, an anonymous person (or botnet) can post whatever they want with…

> As it stands today, an anonymous person (or botnet) can post whatever they want with no fear they will be exposed.

This is also how is has stood throughout American history. The foundation of the US was built on anonymous/pseudonymous pamphlets and secret communications between the "Founding Fathers."

Re: The US Supreme Court doesn’t understand the internet

#22
post #19
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they don't like your content on YouTube, they can punt it instantly. And it can be for ANY REASON Certainly. But Section 230, at least from my reading, does not protect them for the promotion of content. I could be wrong about that. The Supreme Court will decide. Personally I'd find it delightful if the rage-engine got smashed with a legal hammer and my Youtube recommendations were as useful as they were fifteen y…

Wouldn't that also make it incredibly difficult for a new startup to invent a better and less harmful recommendation system?

I'm not sure. If the incumbents were barred from doing a thing they currently have invested a lot of time and money and effort into or such thing was made legally riskier I think that would open the door to competition.

Re: The US Supreme Court doesn’t understand the internet

#23
post #14
post #5

I suspect Section 230 will need to be revamped or at least more thoroughly defined. Some interpretations suggest that any editorial action by a platform (aside from those required by law) changes them from being a common carrier to a publisher with all of the liability that goes with it. It only makes sense that there should be an intermediate zone where a platform provider can engage in editorialism/content restrict…

The problem isn’t the definition it’s that companies want the common carrier status without actually acting like one. The phone company doesn’t editorialize and we would think it insane if they started doing so.

You would want Hacker News or any other forum to be legally responsible for comments posted by users?

Re: The US Supreme Court doesn’t understand the internet

#24
post #19
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they don't like your content on YouTube, they can punt it instantly. And it can be for ANY REASON Certainly. But Section 230, at least from my reading, does not protect them for the promotion of content. I could be wrong about that. The Supreme Court will decide. Personally I'd find it delightful if the rage-engine got smashed with a legal hammer and my Youtube recommendations were as useful as they were fifteen y…

Wouldn't that also make it incredibly difficult for a new startup to invent a better and less harmful recommendation system?

Sure. The fact you can't knowingly do business with known criminals and stolen money also makes it harder to start a new bank.

Re: The US Supreme Court doesn’t understand the internet

#25
post #5

I suspect Section 230 will need to be revamped or at least more thoroughly defined. Some interpretations suggest that any editorial action by a platform (aside from those required by law) changes them from being a common carrier to a publisher with all of the liability that goes with it. It only makes sense that there should be an intermediate zone where a platform provider can engage in editorialism/content restrict…

> It only makes sense that there should be an intermediate zone

Care to share any of that sense?

Re: The US Supreme Court doesn’t understand the internet

#26
post #3

It seems to me the difference in this case is that it complains about content promotion, not content publishing. The issue is that YouTube's algorithms promoted extremist content to people who were prone to extremist behavior. That's not quite the same as simply hosting extremist content uploaded by users. As it says on the Supreme Court site: "Issue: Whether Section 230(c)(1) of the Communications Decency Act immuni…

How could they fix that? If it was that easy to reliably identify illegal/extremist content and prevent it from being recommended they’d just take it down

The obvious options if targeted recommendations are found not to be protected is to only use them with curated content (Netflix) or not use them (reddit).

Re: The US Supreme Court doesn’t understand the internet

#27
FWIW, the Supreme Court doesn't need to understand the Internet to do its job.

A judge's job is to understand the law. It is the job of the lawyers to bring facts and argumentation before the judges to pursuade them that the law should be interpreted one way or the other. The expertise is expected to live with the lawyers, not the judges (and the ability to find expert witnesses and spin up on the details of what they're advocating is a lawyer skill).

Re: The US Supreme Court doesn’t understand the internet

#28
post #9

Whether Section 230(c)(1) of the Communications Decency Act immunizes interactive computer services when they make targeted recommendations of information provided by another information content provider Should it? This feels a lot like a "have your cake and eat it too" situation. Either you're a neutral party or you are not. Being a trillion-dollar company doesn't exempt you from that. Letting a computer make the de…

I think by the logic of "either you're a neutral party or you are not" no provider, big or small, is a neutral party, but I don't think this would produce the best outcome. It's a very good thing if we have lots of sites making different editorial decisions about what is and isn't allowed from users in a community—whether it's a search engine, YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, etc—and let the competition of different rulesets in a market determine who gets traffic, attention, and revenue.

But making editorial decisions downstream—what it chooses to show to users first vs last—doesn't change what people contribute, and this is where Section 230 is trying to provide a balance. People can contribute whatever great or terrible things they contribute, and Section 230s stance is, the provider just has to remove it if it's actually out of bounds. That allows sites to have their own editorial decision-making downstream while allowing user-generated content to flourish upstream, so those decisions matter at all. If the burden of moderation is moved farther upstream, to the point at which people contribute, you've increased the barrier to creating content entirely, you've turned every social network into a newspaper, and you get none of the benefits of the scale, low barrier to entry, and low marginal cost of the Internet to content creation.

In my view, an algorithm is no different than the downstream moderation decisions every website makes with or without an algorithm. Of course an algorithm has values. That's the point! They should have values, and people should choose which sites to use based on how well those design decisions translate into value for the user. Rather than the existence of out-of-bounds content in their systems at all, we should be judging YouTube and others on how well they identify and how quickly they remove that content and how quickly they update their policies (which is just another word for algorithm) to reflect those new values. This is explicitly a tradeoff for making mistakes in the interest of making progress versus safety, because what I'm advocating here does mean you get terrible stuff posted to places where it can get a lot of reach, and it's more likely to get that reach than with a system that moderates farther upstream. Where I think we should be coming down stronger is in regulating reach, not access (at least not entirely). The speed of the stream—the speed of virility—should be slowed to allow for reason to re-enter the conversation. That's where I think regulating content on the Internet needs updating, but not so far upstream that you stop it from getting any kind of reach at all.

The practical framework for regulation that I'd suggest is, if something hits a threshold of reach, it gets moderated more heavily and judged more heavily by authorities.

Related: Deciding on what counts as "out of bounds" content is also extremely hard, but we can put that side for a second, because I think the main issues here are 1) if a moderation decision is required, and 2) where the moderation decision occurs.

Re: The US Supreme Court doesn’t understand the internet

#29
post #3

It seems to me the difference in this case is that it complains about content promotion, not content publishing. The issue is that YouTube's algorithms promoted extremist content to people who were prone to extremist behavior. That's not quite the same as simply hosting extremist content uploaded by users. As it says on the Supreme Court site: "Issue: Whether Section 230(c)(1) of the Communications Decency Act immuni…

Google decides what emails go in the gmail inbox vs spam folder vs rejected outright. Should they be legally responsible if an offensive email lands in your inbox?

Re: The US Supreme Court doesn’t understand the internet

#30
post #19
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If they don't like your content on YouTube, they can punt it instantly. And it can be for ANY REASON Certainly. But Section 230, at least from my reading, does not protect them for the promotion of content. I could be wrong about that. The Supreme Court will decide. Personally I'd find it delightful if the rage-engine got smashed with a legal hammer and my Youtube recommendations were as useful as they were fifteen y…

Wouldn't that also make it incredibly difficult for a new startup to invent a better and less harmful recommendation system?

What would a non-harmful or less harmful (than what?) recommendation system look like? What's the end goal of a recommendation system?
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