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Dark energy from supermassive black holes? Physicists spar over radical idea

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Re: Dark energy from supermassive black holes? Physicists spar over radical idea

#41
post #2

> He also says the numbers don’t seem to add up: Dark energy is known to make up 70% of the mass-energy of the universe, whereas black holes are a mere fraction of the ordinary matter, which constitutes less than 5% of the universe So it seems both the missing dark energy and the missing dark matter could both be explained for, if there were far more black holes in our universe than we're currently aware of?

The "black holes as dark matter" were termed MACHOs (massive astrophysical compact halo object) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massive_compact_halo_object

Most of that has been ruled out (see the graph on http://resonaances.blogspot.com/2016/06/black-hole-dark-matt... ) and while some black holes may fall into the dark matter category, the observed "if there were that many black holes, micro lensing would be this common..."

The result of those tests constrains black holes to less than 1% of the calculated dark matter... though there are some windows where there is very likely active research to try to detect black holes with those masses along with the cosmological models needed to have an early universe that produces black holes of that size in that quantity.

From https://arxiv.org/pdf/2007.10722v3.pdf

> Primordial Black Holes, in particular asteroid mass ones, remain a viable dark matter candidate. Further improve- ments in the theoretical calculations of the production and evolution of PBHs are required to reliably predict the abundance and properties of PBHs from a given model. Even so, it seems clear that a cosmologically interesting num- ber of PBHs can only be produced in specific models of the early Universe, and often fine-tuning is required. However, whether or not PBHs are a significant component of the DM is a question that has to be answered observationally. Novel ideas are needed here to either detect or rule out the remaining open parameter space.

Note that we're dealing with really small ones that haven't evaporated yet.

The chart on page 16 - with M PBH [g] and the X axis of 10^15 to 10^36 - that's grams.

Also fun - https://github.com/bradkav/PBHbounds which has them in solar masses

Re: Dark energy from supermassive black holes? Physicists spar over radical idea

#42
post #13

I'm a layman, but I like this idea intuitively. It's not mentioned in the article, but this theory also necessitates that black holes aren't singularities, which gets rid of what always seemed to me like the biggest hack in physics.

I've always wondered if the "horizon" metaphor in event horizon was more apt than we expected - just like when you approach the earth's horizon, you don't get flattened or fall off, you just reveal more geography - I've always wondered if it were possible that as you approach an event horizon you don't get "squashed into spaghetti" but just reveal more space which is just as "normal" as the space before you approache…

The "squashed into spaghetti" occurs in "normal space" before you get to the black hole, for most black holes. It is not an effect of anything special about black holes, it's just plain ol' normal tidal effects, turned up to eleven, then turned up until the knob breaks, then turned up some more. Neutron stars will give you a bad day with tidal effects too long before you reach their surface.

Very large black holes turn out not to have this, though it's going to be a long time cosmologically before there are any large black holes also quiet enough for you to get anywhere near.

Re: Dark energy from supermassive black holes? Physicists spar over radical idea

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dark matter is overfitted. This isn’t some comparative advantage it has. The number of parameters you set manually in many of these models is insane. We are fundamentally missing something. Thankfully it’s just not all that important for us right now.

Can you give examples of these parameters that must be set manually?

These are the free parameters of the Standard Model https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model#Construction_...

Re: Dark energy from supermassive black holes? Physicists spar over radical idea

#44
Here's a question I'm not even remotely qualified to ask: could it be that supermassive black holes cause a contraction of local spacetime in a way that gives the impression that local space is static while distant space expands?

I think this mechanism would be largely indistinguishable from classic hubble expansion, at least on local scales.

Re: Dark energy from supermassive black holes? Physicists spar over radical idea

#45
post #34

I'm still convinced that there's a huge gap in general relativity since it seems that "dark matter/energy" with no material evidence whatsoever is exactly that final correction term.

Dark energy is just the cosmological constant. It fits into general relativity with no problem at all.

Re: Dark energy from supermassive black holes? Physicists spar over radical idea

#46

Correct me if I'm wrong (please), but don't we still lack any kind of fundamental definition of what dark energy/matter is other than..."the cause of the difference between what is calculated, and what is observed"? To the point that we aren't even really sure that there is such a "thing" as dark matter (in that it exists in any conventional sense)? From Wikipedia: "Dark matter is a hypothetical form of matter though…

>I find it kind of funny that humans are so confident that our models of reality are correct

The models used aren't used because scientists think they are correct, but because they are the best models that fit existing experimental data. Best normally meaning 'simplest that explain all data', but it isn't quite always that simple. There are scientists who spend the latter parts of their careers trying to find even better models or even proposing worse models that are useful to keep in a folder somewhere in case they ever do become relevant or we come across data the current model can't explain. At the cutting edge of science you even find that the current models aren't matching all the data, but there is no consensus on a better model and scientists are working to either expand or replace the current model to fit the new data and to explore the non-matching data to either see if it is an error (which does happen) or if it gives hints on a better model.

Anyone who thinks that the model is correct is someone who is lacking a foundation in what science is saying. Often scientists don't talk about the distinction because it is too detailed for the public to care about, but that's not the same as not recognizing the distinction. (Much like how programmers talk about computers as if they are intelligent beings making decisions, often to the programmer's detriment, despite any good programmer knowing that isn't the case, newest models of AI tentatively excluded.)

Re: Dark energy from supermassive black holes? Physicists spar over radical idea

#47

Correct me if I'm wrong (please), but don't we still lack any kind of fundamental definition of what dark energy/matter is other than..."the cause of the difference between what is calculated, and what is observed"? To the point that we aren't even really sure that there is such a "thing" as dark matter (in that it exists in any conventional sense)? From Wikipedia: "Dark matter is a hypothetical form of matter though…

From what I understand, this has nothing to do with dark matter. It's only about dark energy, which is an unrelated concept.

+1

In particular, dark energy is not

> "the cause of the difference between what is calculated, and what is observed"

Dark energy / the cosmological constant Λ is a completely natural parameter to the field equations, not a corrective term (even though it might feel that way if you follow the history of cosmology). It's not that we calculated Λ to be zero but observations forced us to set it to something non-zero. We had no clue what it's value should be and simply deduced from observations that it happens to be non-zero. End of story.

Now, particle physicists / field theorists have been looking for a particle physics-based explanation for Λ and preliminarily called it "dark energy". But there's no guarantee there is one. Maybe Λ is indeed just a boring parameter.

Re: Dark energy from supermassive black holes? Physicists spar over radical idea

#48

Could the cosmic web explain dark matter/energy? Could gravity not being homogenous across universe explain dark matter/energy? What if law of gravity has other terms that only reduce to the versions we think of as true in the scenarios we've tested...but the other terms are affecting things of supermassive scale? What if there is some other "force" between things cosmically that we have never seen on the scales we'v…

>Could gravity not being homogenous across universe explain dark matter/energy?

[chatGPT]> While it is true that gravity is not perfectly homogeneous across the universe, this alone does not explain dark matter or dark energy.

Dark matter is believed to exist because of the observed gravitational effects on galaxies and galaxy clusters that cannot be accounted for by the visible matter alone. These observations suggest that there is additional matter that we cannot see, which we call dark matter. While gravity may vary in strength in different regions of the universe, this alone cannot explain the observed gravitational effects that we attribute to dark matter.

Similarly, dark energy is believed to exist because of the observed accelerating expansion of the universe. While variations in gravity across the universe could play a role in this phenomenon, they cannot explain the magnitude of the effect that we observe.

In summary, while variations in gravity across the universe are a real phenomenon, they cannot fully explain the observed effects attributed to dark matter and dark energy. These mysteries continue to be the subject of active research in the field of astrophysics and cosmology.

Re: Dark energy from supermassive black holes? Physicists spar over radical idea

#49
post #9

>Dark energy is known to make up 70% of the mass-energy of the universe, whereas black holes are a mere fraction of the ordinary matter, which constitutes less than 5% of the universe. Is there some cosmological constraint that says dark energy compressed into a small volume would exhibit gravitational pull and therefore contribute to our measurements of black hole masses? If not then it feels like this is a weak cou…

>Is there some cosmological constraint that says dark energy compressed into a small volume would exhibit gravitational pull and therefore contribute to our measurements of black hole masses?

[chatGPT]> There is currently no evidence to suggest that dark energy can be compressed into a small volume and exhibit a gravitational pull in the same way that ordinary matter does. Dark energy is thought to be a property of the vacuum of space itself, and its effect on the universe is driven by its negative pressure, which causes the universe's expansion to accelerate.

Black hole masses are measured by observing their gravitational effects on surrounding matter and other astronomical objects. The mass of a black hole can be estimated by measuring the velocity of nearby stars or gas clouds and using the laws of gravity to infer the mass of the object producing the gravitational field. These measurements are based on our current understanding of gravity and are not affected by the presence or absence of dark energy.

However, it is worth noting that the properties of dark energy are still not fully understood, and there may be some new discoveries or developments in our understanding of gravity that could change our current understanding of these phenomena. Nonetheless, as of now, there is no evidence to suggest that dark energy can contribute to our measurements of black hole masses through its gravitational effects.

Re: Dark energy from supermassive black holes? Physicists spar over radical idea

#50
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've always wondered if the "horizon" metaphor in event horizon was more apt than we expected - just like when you approach the earth's horizon, you don't get flattened or fall off, you just reveal more geography - I've always wondered if it were possible that as you approach an event horizon you don't get "squashed into spaghetti" but just reveal more space which is just as "normal" as the space before you approache…

The "squashed into spaghetti" occurs in "normal space" before you get to the black hole, for most black holes. It is not an effect of anything special about black holes, it's just plain ol' normal tidal effects, turned up to eleven, then turned up until the knob breaks, then turned up some more. Neutron stars will give you a bad day with tidal effects too long before you reach their surface. Very large black holes tu…

To an outside observer it would look like you were torn apart by tidal forces, but would it feel that way to you? Or would you feel normal? If it's just space being curved, would you feel nothing just like you feel nothing in freefall? I'm sure this question is wrong...
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