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Amazon employees express dismay, anger about sudden return-to-office policy

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Re: Amazon employees express dismay, anger about sudden return-to-office policy

#121

Post by bluGill »

xwdv wrote: post #28
eckza wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Boy these employees are about to get what looks like a very expensive lesson in expectation / risk management. Is that really the takeaway, here?

What else is there to takeaway? They knew they weren’t working for a remote-first company. They knew what their contract said. They played a dangerous game and now they’re finally burned. You cannot collect an Amazon salary living out in Idaho or Nebraska.

While you cannot collect an Amazon salary out there - because Amazon won't pay you if you live there, you can collect a similar salary out there from other companies that just need good people and pay them well. Of course you will need to wade through the companies that figure since cost of living is less out there they should pay you less. However wages are competitive for full remote companies, so companies that allow full remote tend to not care where you live, they just pay enough to get the people they need.

Note, such companies do count what country you live in. You will make different amounts in US, India, Germany, and Mexico. For legal reasons people who live in a different country are not equivalent to each others.

Re: Amazon employees express dismay, anger about sudden return-to-office policy

#122

Post by matwood »

ProjectArcturis wrote: post #113
hotpotamus wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the problems I've always had with remote work is how do you justify large differences in pay between the US, Europe, and Asia if the location of an employee is not supposed to matter?

The C-Suite has been trying to outsource for 30+ years now. It doesn't work because the talent just isn't there.

There's talent, but unless the company is huge and can open a whole office, things like time zones, culture and language are very hard to overcome. And to your point, the most talented come to the US where they can make the most money.

Re: Amazon employees express dismay, anger about sudden return-to-office policy

#123

Post by bluGill »

aketchum wrote: post #90
Adraghast wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if the dev in Boise and the dev in Seattle and the dev in Butte got together and agreed none of them would work for less than a certain salary?

what if you had wheels instead of feet? there is zero mechanism for this and tech workers have shown again and again that there is not interest in a professional union.

Unions in the US have policies that tech people do not want. Often they are backed up by law, so you cannot legally form a union that gives you the good without the bad.

Re: Amazon employees express dismay, anger about sudden return-to-office policy

#124

Post by chollida1 »

ubermonkey wrote: post #112
otikik wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, they should have expected shitty behavior from Bezos and Co. My take is that this is a cover mass layoff. Amazon is enforcing this now in the hopes that people like these folks resign voluntarily. Another mass layoff would make their share price drop again.

>mass layoff Yeah, could be. They know there will be attrition because of this; the labor market is still really favorable to workers, and there's plenty of remote work. I remember years ago when Garmin relocated its dev team from San Jose to Overland Park, Kansas -- paid relo! -- and lost a ton of devs in the process. Not many folks in San Jose are going to jump at the chance to move to Kansas, so they mostly ended…

> And, shockingly!, the software quality in Garmin devices started plummeting soon after. Weird

Long time Garmin user here

Have not noticed a drop j on n software quality.

What specific metrics would you put forward to back up your assertion?

As the saying goes extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

Re: Amazon employees express dismay, anger about sudden return-to-office policy

#125

Post by lettergram »

nemo44x wrote: post #79
lettergram wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly, I hate the policy of paying based on region (I won’t work for those companies) You’re providing X value, and the company needs to make >X, often by some multiple mX profit so to speak. My costs are my business, and I shouldn’t be punished for making different life choices. If remote employees tend to produce a lower multiple, that’s fine. Just provide a salary at the reduced rate. Should be the same everywhe…

It’s about market prices. If you can find someone to overpay market rates to you then more power to you. But I know of 0 companies that do. I’ve worked for remote first companies that specifically didn’t hire in expensive areas so they could find more affordable talent. This is how markets work.

Sure, the market is global though.

I always approach each conversation the same. I won’t interview until we discuss potential salary range. If it’s within a range I’d accept for the work, we interview. The argument I’ve made in negotiations is always similar - if you’re willing to pay X (regardless of location), it should matter more about what I can offer in return. If you’re penny pinching to try and cut that employee cost 10-20% have at it. I know my worth and can provide significant multiples over that. I guarantee I can provide the same level or more productivity as a remote engineer in New York as I do in the rural south.

Re: Amazon employees express dismay, anger about sudden return-to-office policy

#126

Post by klyrs »

kmac_ wrote: post #96
theodpHN wrote: post #2

Amazon Wants 10,000+ Employee Dogs Back in Office, Facilitating Collaboration https://slashdot.org/submission/17188709/amazon-wants-10000-...

Do the dogs wander around the offices? What about employees with allergies?

Though owners are generally expected to keep them, dogs predictably escape containment. Humans with allergies sneeze, which startles the dogs into barking. It's ridiculous. I'd be in favor of onsite doggy daycare, not in my working environment.

Re: Amazon employees express dismay, anger about sudden return-to-office policy

#127

Post by mabbo »

pxlpshr wrote: post #97
mabbo wrote: post #64

I said this in another thread on this topic, but this was one of the key reasons I left Amazon in 2021. I knew this was coming. It was clear from tech survey (company-wide very long survey on all topics) that devs did not want to be in the office. Yet there was an email from leadership that said "We know you all can't wait to be back in the office". This bizarre dichotomy where we know they know we don't want this, b…

I'm sorry but there's no correlation to AMZN's stock price reaching all-time highs. 1) The entire world was caught in a two-year pandemic and caused e-commerce to exceed retail spending virtually overnight (See: SHOP, BIGC, etc)... and 2) The fed printed an asinine amount of money that dislocated the market from reality. Your work-from-home team had nothing to do with either of those two massive tailwinds.

Sure, but was the company tanking because we were all working from home?

No?

All I'm saying is that the company was operating just fine despite everyone being remote. There wasn't a financial reason to do it, and probably lots of good financial reasons not to (sell the offices, reduce overhead that way).

Re: Amazon employees express dismay, anger about sudden return-to-office policy

#128

Post by eddieroger »

ppg677 wrote: post #47
ddalex wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because salary is not determined by how much profit you make but by the demand of your labour in the market.

Newsflash-- the "market" is becoming less constrained by geography.

Seemingly not if companies are moving back to in-person. Can't be in person at Amazon in Montana.

Re: Amazon employees express dismay, anger about sudden return-to-office policy

#129

Post by ilikecakeandpie »

Adraghast wrote: post #34
xwdv wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What else is there to takeaway? They knew they weren’t working for a remote-first company. They knew what their contract said. They played a dangerous game and now they’re finally burned. You cannot collect an Amazon salary living out in Idaho or Nebraska.

Why not?

I'm with you. The quality and value of my work does not change with regards to my physical location

Re: Amazon employees express dismay, anger about sudden return-to-office policy

#130

Post by nus07 »

Adraghast wrote: post #63
xwdv wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because developers in those regions can tolerate less salary due to their lower expenses, as a competitive advantage.

What if the dev in Boise and the dev in Seattle and the dev in Butte got together and agreed none of them would work for less than a certain salary?

So you are indirectly saying that they will form a union. Human greed will say that the developer in Seattle(or others) will not agree to it and look for a better deal for himself/herself.
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