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World’s largest four-day work week trial finds few are going back

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Re: World’s largest four-day work week trial finds few are going back

#261

Post by chmod775 »

gcascio wrote: post #256
bavila wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My conclusions after observing a ton of people in technical and nontechnical jobs is that beyond working 20-25 hours a week, having people do more is useless... I'm not so sure about this. I was working in a remote "full-stack" (but really 90% front-end role) for 14 months from the start of January 2021 to the end of February 2022. I tracked my hours religiously the entire time I was employed there (not required, b…

> It was all very doable and not useless time spent futzing around (I would also stop tracking my time for any break I took - no exceptions). I have a similar experience working remotely. I can be productive 40+ hours a week without getting drained. But this includes making rather long breaks between blocks of work. Usually this ends up in blocks of ~2-3hours with breaks of ~1hour in between. Although this works out…

I'm somewhat similar, except that I use those breaks to do private things, like spending time with others, getting a workout in, doing chores, etc.

As a result I have much less useless idle time compared to working in an office and my days feel like there's so much more time in them. When it's 7pm for me there's nothing important left to do, whereas with an office job I would probably have to cram a dozen things into the next three hours before 10pm.

So yeah I don't mind "ending late".

Re: World’s largest four-day work week trial finds few are going back

#262

Post by jacobjwebber »

vouaobrasil wrote: post #13

When was a mathematician, I worked as hard as I could until I was mentally exhausted. I actually calculated how much I worked per week over a period of two years. On actual "hard thinking", like working through logic, I spent about 7 hours. There was another 7 hours writing and clarifying topics, and another 6 hours or so on classes, seminars (sort of like meetings, but productive). That gives a total of 20 hours per…

I’m doing a phd in informatics. 4 hours per weekday of actual work is what I have found to be my sustainable limit. Not sure I could even do this 5 days a week, more like 3 or 4.

Re: World’s largest four-day work week trial finds few are going back

#263

Post by lmarcos »

therealdrag0 wrote: post #196
lettergram wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I actually work 6 days a week (only Sunday off) noon until midnight with a two hour break 5-7pm. That’s 60 hrs of work a week, but I get to spend every morning 7am-noon with my kids. It’s been a great change of pace for me personally. We have a garden we do as a family, I can do doc appointments, some field trips, etc. while still working extremely hard. It’s not for everyone, but that schedule has been great for me…

I support it, as long as you’re well compensated and you like it. I think due to wanting to “stick it to the man” there can be too much anti-work sentiment. It’s okay if it’s a throw away side project but not okay if it’s for your employer? Wat. Seems like a silly distinction and backward if anything. I definitely don’t work as much as you but I also love my work and work random odd hours and sometimes voluntarily ex…

It's not anti-work sentiment. It's like the people who drink too much alcohol or smoke everyday: is it bad for your body? Probably, but you definitely can go ahead and do it, no one is going to stop you.

Re: World’s largest four-day work week trial finds few are going back

#264

Post by neom »

piva00 wrote: post #107
ravenstine wrote: post #21

Good. If civilization isn't moving to improve quality of life, but to make sure that we keep working more and more, we have to ask ourselves what exactly is the point of technological progress.

If you are not familiar with it, may I present to you Bertrand Russell's "In Praise of Idleness". In 1920 he was already advocating exactly that.

Hello fellow Bertrand Russell fan??! I don't see his name come up on HN too often but really nice to see In Praise of Idleness mentioned. For anyone reading this who wants to consume some of his philosophy:

In Praise of Idleness: And Other Essays - https://www.amazon.com/Praise-Idleness-Routledge-Classics-46...

The Conquest of Happiness - https://www.amazon.com/Conquest-Happiness-Bertrand-Russell/d...

Re: World’s largest four-day work week trial finds few are going back

#265

Post by reanimated »

piva00 wrote: post #243
lettergram wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Go on with your career ladder game, not everyone in humanity praise that as much as you. On the contrary, lots will see you as either naive or moronic. We can critique how I choose to spend my time, but what about the alternatives? Play video games with strangers? Drink and dance? Play board games with friends? Go to church / mosque every day? Walk down paths to see pretty streams? Smoke pot and watch cartoons? Str…

> I work probably 40-50hrs a week coding/architecting and 10-20hrs a week managing a farm [cows, hay, honey] (plus 2-3 weeks out of the year doing 12 hr day harvesting). So this isn't a 6 days a week x 10 hours in a job working through a promotion path. I'm unsure why you brought that up as a point before, it doesn't align to what you further exposed here. Another point: > You can try to regulate day(s), but if there…

> Society will set the standard, not the ones who work more, society as a whole sets that.

Agree. I started to work in remote team even before pandemic hit. And I quite often see people extending their work hours late until the midnight or sometimes even on the weekends, because they want to "catch up". But its their choice and it doesnt normalise it in our organisation. Nobody is setting it as an example and there is no such expectation from us and I highly doubt that it would change anytime soon.

Re: World’s largest four-day work week trial finds few are going back

#267

Post by jvvw »

ambrose2 wrote: post #201
dheera wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's also that we once had a society where one person in a household worked 8 hours a day and one did house chores (including raising kids) for 8 hours a day. In a modern, fair society, that should translate into both people working 4 hours a day and house chores 4 hours a day. Unfortunately the reality right now is we're pushing both people to each work 12 hours a day AND do 4 hours of chores on top of that.

There’s also the argument that you could live off of one salary and downsize / live frugally (two-income trap), but things are more expensive (e.g. the world is more safe now, but that also makes it more expensive).

We have sort-of done this (salary disparity means that we are on more than half what we originally were). I do find it hard though in many ways. I've done intellectual things all my life, got a PhD in maths etc. and now I'm basically a housewife. I do get some time to myself, but I miss the connection to other people that you get with work. Ideally I think I'd like to work perhaps 5-10 hours a week but there aren't really jobs around that are interesting doing those sorts of hours. I tried a couple of things (consultancy, university teaching) but they didn't really work for various reasons.

With one person working, you're also increasing risk. If that person loses their job and can't easily find another one, you're more likely to be stuck. We think that's pretty unlikely and we've made sure we have a safety net, but it's definitely something to consider if you go down this route. Once you have children in school who are settled and happy, then moving for a new job becomes a much bigger deal. I'm very conscious that the longer I don't work, the harder it will probably be for me to find work again.

Re: World’s largest four-day work week trial finds few are going back

#268

Post by Strom »

Claude_Shannon wrote: post #266

If you work four days a week, others will work five days a week and will outpace you.

Why stop at five? What about six days a week?

Also I doubt the amount of time worked is anywhere near as good of a predictor for success as willingness to work.

Re: World’s largest four-day work week trial finds few are going back

#269

Post by BrandoElFollito »

Edit: sorry for the long post, the TL;DR is at the end

I have a job that combines highly stressful times (managing quickly evolving crises) and governance points (policies, useless meetings, some useful meetings). And socialization on top of that.

I work 3 days at the office and 2 days from home.

The days at the office are dedicated to the most exhausting meetings - the one everyone hates where people battle about who has the longest penis and stresses everyone. Productivity is close to zero.

These are also the days where I socialize with my team around coffee and chatter.

Strictly productivity wise these days are very poor. The fact that I meet people and have actual meaningful meetings as well saves the day.

Ideally, I would compress the dick show meetings on a Monday and start the real week on Tuesday.

Two days in the office from 9 to 18 are acceptable then. Effective work wood be probably about 4 hours per day.

The days at home are for thinking and quick Zoom calls focused on a given topic. I set 30 minutes per call, with the possibility to extend to 1h if needed. Anything more means another call.

Effective work time: about 5 hours a day.

I am exhausted after the dick show meetings and I know I won't do any good work afterwards. Despite having a very senior position at my company I know I cannot change these meetings.

A crisis is not a problem, I can do it over hours and hours and be very positive. That is before my management arrives "to help".

Sorry for the long post, the TL;DR is that it would be great to have 4 days weeks, but this would need to come with major changes on how companies are managed or we will end with less productivity because of the mentally draining part that is endangering the useful one.

Re: World’s largest four-day work week trial finds few are going back

#270

Post by koonsolo »

sjtgraham wrote: post #193
vouaobrasil wrote: post #13

When was a mathematician, I worked as hard as I could until I was mentally exhausted. I actually calculated how much I worked per week over a period of two years. On actual "hard thinking", like working through logic, I spent about 7 hours. There was another 7 hours writing and clarifying topics, and another 6 hours or so on classes, seminars (sort of like meetings, but productive). That gives a total of 20 hours per…

> > My conclusions after observing a ton of people in technical and nontechnical jobs is that beyond working 20-25 hours a week, having people do more is useless... If there are people who can't run a mile and those who can run over 100, what makes you think everyone universally can sustain 20-25 hours of focussed work per week?

If I do 20-25 hours a week, and nobody else can outperform me in productive output, I don't really care how much hours they put in.

I've had jobs where I was productive maybe 4 hours a week, and got excellent reviews. So I always wondered if I got that, WTF were the other devs doing?

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