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The Audacity of the iBooks Author EULA

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Re: The Audacity of the iBooks Author EULA

#121

Post by nigham »

nirvana wrote: post #20
ugh wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s the legal side. It’s still possible to be disgusted by this for purely moral reasons. Apple is pulling some vile bullshit here and they shouldn’t.

I was actually arguing the moral point. There's nothing immoral about setting the terms upon which you will trade your labor. Its the same as an employee deciding they want a higher salary or a lower one. The people who made this software give it away for free, under the understanding that it could be used by others who also give their work away fro free. What's wrong with that? But if people want to profit form it,…

Your argument is valid, but barely so, which is where it becomes a moral or ethical issue. It's like saying that Microsoft can assert a copyright claim and distribution rights over any presentation made with Powerpoint, simply because their bullet point image is Microsoft material and any presentation, no matter how original, is a derivative work. Technically valid, but if they tried to enforce that I'd wouldn't be supporting them.

Re: The Audacity of the iBooks Author EULA

#122

Post by pieter »

ekianjo wrote: post #97

Get an Apple typewriter. Write your Book. Once it's done Apple knocks on your door, tells you that you have to sell their book in their store, and they will take a cut from it. And if you are against that, you can't sell it at all. So much for the 21st century progress and freedom to own what you create.

I like the similarity, but you have to make it more honest:

You're a writer, but don't have a good typewriter. Apple is willing to lend you one for free. The only issue is that if you then want to sell your book, you have to sell it through Apple's store. If you don't sell a single copy, Apple won't charge you for the use of the typewriter. If you sell a lot of copies, Apple gets a cut, both for the book being in their store (publicity) and the use of their typewriter. You're still allowed to use different typewriters, and you can even sell books written on a different typewriter in Apple's store, though they'll still take a cut.

Doesn't sound terribly unreasonable to me

Re: The Audacity of the iBooks Author EULA

#123

Post by arien »

__david__ wrote: post #59

Initially I had an unfavorable opinion on this. But I started thinking about game engines: When you use the Unreal or Unity game engine authoring tools, you don't expect to be able to sell your game without giving the game engine company a cut. It might be a flat rate, but that's basically the same thing. Apple are providing authoring tools for their "iBooks 2" engine and are not out of line expecting a cut of the pr…

You are giving them a cut partly because your application will contain parts of their source code. I think it's not a good/exact comparison.

I think the ownership is about the output format, not the contents itself, so it could be better compared to InstallShield, for example. It is used to package and easily distribute/install your Windows programs.

If it was free but they'd requested similar conditions to those in the iBooks EULA (that you can only distribute it in their own channels, that they might reject your program if they don't like it, etc.), would you still consider them for distribution?

Re: The Audacity of the iBooks Author EULA

#124

Post by Tyrannosaurs »

bradleyland wrote: post #104
feralchimp wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I've seen a large volume of creative software, often free, that is used to produce output, that requires, as part of its license, that you give the creator of the software a cut if you sell any of the things you make with it. Comparing the history of "Apple-branded Mac software for which Apple does not charge users license fees" with the history of the "free for non-commercial use" software projects of the world is.…

> Imagine for a moment that the next update to Xcode or GarageBand included EULA language similar to what the OP is complaining about. Would you defend it on the grounds you cite above, or not? And if not, why not? The Xcode example is already a reality. If you produce an iOS app using Xcode, you have two choices: sell it for a price in the App Store and pay Apple a cut, or give it away. I would not be at all surpris…

A couple of points on what you say:

* The Xcode example isn't a reality. I can see my Mac application outside of the appstore without giving Apple a penny. I can sell my corporate iPhone / iPad application without giving Apple a penny (corporates can obtain management tools that allow them to load applications without using the appstore). It's true for a subset - consumer iOS apps.

* I've had Xcode prior to it's free availability in the appstore and have never had an ADC account - it was on the CDs with my MacBook.

Re: The Audacity of the iBooks Author EULA

#125

Post by sutterbomb »

jabkobob wrote: post #119
naner wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being upset at this restriction is perfectly reasonable. It is intended to keep authors/editors artificially locked into Apple's products and distribution system. Imagine how you would feel about similar restrictions on other production tools (Photoshop, Visual Studio, Word, Garage Band, etc.) and you would immediately see this is shitty behavior. Though I do agree with what you are saying: people have a choice not t…

> you probably won't know your restrictions until you've already put in the work Do people really start putting significant effort into projects without thinking about legal issues, distribution, etc.? (I don't consider downloading an app and creating a two page test book as 'significant effort')

I'm sure people do, but they shouldn't blame Apple (or anyone else) for their lack of due diligence. The glovebox argument is just one more example of the entitlement issue that Nirvana describes.

Re: The Audacity of the iBooks Author EULA

#126

Post by unsigner »

How is this different than Microsoft giving away a version of their C++ compiler as part of the Xbox development kit which can only produce executables that can be sold via Microsoft to people having Xboxes? The comparison is favorable to Apple, as they allow free books, unlike the console vendors.

In both cases, the platform vendor is giving away nice dev tools in order to get more content to sale on his platform.

(read Microsoft as "Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo")

Re: The Audacity of the iBooks Author EULA

#127

Post by wazoox »

johnthedebs wrote: post #112
zak_mc_kracken wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "It's Apple's product so they can do anything they want and therefore there is no reasonable discussion to be had about whether or not it makes sense or is offensive or the right thing to do" The problem is also that it's this kind of attitude that allowed Microsoft to illegally leverage its monopoly to pressure other markets, with the excuse that "Hey, you don't have to use Microsoft if you don't like their terms"…

The crucial difference here being that Microsoft had a monopoly.

In the tablet world, so far Apple enjoys a near monopoly.

Re: The Audacity of the iBooks Author EULA

#128

Post by pbhjpbhj »

Turing_Machine wrote: post #31
dman wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah I see where our difference in opinion originates from - you look at the book outputted by the tool as a derived work. I must admit I never conceived of this possibility, and I am still trying to digest it. I wonder how many authors who use Apple's product will realise that after two years of hard work to create a manuscript, just by hitting publish the outputted object will not wholly belong to them.

The generated book contains Apple's code. It's definitely a derivative work. That said, a person would be foolish to write the entire book using this. Write your text and create your graphics in your editors of choice, import them into this tool to create a nice layout for the iBookstore, then import them into another tool to create a nice layout for Kindle or whatever. You might have to do that anyway -- I've yet to…

Coming soon to a packet of pens near you - an EULA/shrinkwrap license ... any works created with this pen can only be sold, or used in a business setting, after purchase from the EvilBic shop with all profits going to EvilBic Inc..

Re: The Audacity of the iBooks Author EULA

#129

Post by pbhjpbhj »

Turing_Machine wrote: post #31
dman wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah I see where our difference in opinion originates from - you look at the book outputted by the tool as a derived work. I must admit I never conceived of this possibility, and I am still trying to digest it. I wonder how many authors who use Apple's product will realise that after two years of hard work to create a manuscript, just by hitting publish the outputted object will not wholly belong to them.

The generated book contains Apple's code. It's definitely a derivative work. That said, a person would be foolish to write the entire book using this. Write your text and create your graphics in your editors of choice, import them into this tool to create a nice layout for the iBookstore, then import them into another tool to create a nice layout for Kindle or whatever. You might have to do that anyway -- I've yet to…

Coming soon to a packet of pens near you - an EULA/shrinkwrap license ... any works created with this pen can only be sold, or used in a business setting, after purchase from the EvilBic shop with all profits going to EvilBic Inc..

Re: The Audacity of the iBooks Author EULA

#130

Post by cjoh »

bradleyland wrote: post #106
cjoh wrote: post #75

Can someone explain this a bit better to me? Let's say I write a book called "My Awesome Comments from HackerNews, Unabridged" (MACFHU) using Microsoft Word. And I send that to my publisher, retaining all rights to publish the book still. Then I adapt MACFHU for iBooks using the iBook Author tool. Would I then be prohibited from selling my book in the iBookstore because it's already available in hardcover? If I publi…

It is the latter. Only the output is restricted. The material belongs to you.

So then what's the problem?
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