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Let's build a Chrome extension that steals as much data as possible

mattfrisbie.substack.com

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Re: Let's build a Chrome extension that steals as much data as possible

#141

Post by aboodman »

metadat wrote: post #9

> Chrome scrolls the permission warning message container, so more than half of the warning messages don’t even show up. I’d bet most users wouldn’t think twice about installing an extension that appears to ask for just 5 permissions. An egregious and nearly unbelievable oversight on Google's part. :-\ As a developer, it's unimaginable to me to not test the extreme high and low numbers of inputs cases to ensure thing…

> The chain of humans who've been responsible for developing and testing Chrome Extension functionality and security has been asleep at the wheel this whole time, for something like 15 years.

As the first in this chain of humans, I can tell you that (a) we obviously considered this in the first version of extensions and did not allow permissions "below" the fold, (b) Chrome's extension model dramatically improved on the previous state of the art which was Firefox's "every extension can do everything, extensions can't be uninstalled completely, and there's no review" [1], and (c) the install dialog is just one part in a bigger system which includes the review process.

I encourage the author to try and get this onto the store and get meaningful usage, then we can complain about how well the entire system works end to end. Examining just the install dialog alone is missing the point. I'm not even certain that an extension that requests more than 5 permissions would be approved in the first place.

I also encourage readers to remember that generally speaking, you all _want_ extensions. When Chrome didn't have them, they were the top feature request in the bug tracker. Real security is hard. If you don't solve user needs, users solve them themselves with solutions that are even worse (ie native code). Managing the browser extension system is a thankless painful job of delicately balancing incentives. Extensions need to work well enough that developers don't reach for more powerful and dangerous tools, but have enough controls that the majority of malware can be controlled. It sucks. Trust me you really don't want this job. Please spare a bit of empathy for the "chain of humans" that have had it.

[1] https://static.googleusercontent.com/media/research.google.c...

Re: Let's build a Chrome extension that steals as much data as possible

#142

Post by deafpolygon »

metadat wrote: post #9

> Chrome scrolls the permission warning message container, so more than half of the warning messages don’t even show up. I’d bet most users wouldn’t think twice about installing an extension that appears to ask for just 5 permissions. An egregious and nearly unbelievable oversight on Google's part. :-\ As a developer, it's unimaginable to me to not test the extreme high and low numbers of inputs cases to ensure thing…

> nearly unbelievable oversight on Google's part

You're giving Google way too much credit here. Do you not think they use some of these techniques here? Or that they're an endpoint for other people's usage of these techniques?

> security has been asleep at the wheel this whole time, for something like 15 years

All is as intended.

Re: Let's build a Chrome extension that steals as much data as possible

#143

Post by lostlogin »

Shared404 wrote: post #96
Dalewyn wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>this is on a Mac that has scroll bars that are invisible until you scroll. What modern UI even has visible scroll bars by default? And assuming it's even visible (either by default or user-configured after the fact if that's even possible), what modern UI even has scroll bars wider than 1px?

> What modern UI even has visible scroll bars by default? Pretty much all of them except Mac. Can speak personally for KDE, Sway, GNOME, and Windows 10. And when they are invisible, they usually show up on mouse motion/window interaction, so it's still not as egregious.

> Pretty much all of them except Mac.

iOS is way more prevalent and has hidden scroll bars unless scrolling. Thanks Apple.

Re: Let's build a Chrome extension that steals as much data as possible

#145

Post by cush »

nostromo wrote: post #11

Wait until you see what’s possible with executables! I like this project, but I also worry that eventually we’re going to lose access to extensions entirely because people will take away the wrong message. Safeguards are good, but at a certain point I want my devices to trust that I know what I’m doing.

It takes two clicks to install an extension. There's no differentiating people who know or don't know what they're doing with two clicks.

Re: Let's build a Chrome extension that steals as much data as possible

#146

Post by omoikane »

drpixie wrote: post #20

I'd like a fork of chrome which removes all (or at least most) the "features" mentioned - a browser that renders well but just doesn't support these masses of unsecure features. If you want to give 3rd parties access to all that stuff, you can run chrome. But I don't - I want the bare minimum that will run normal websites. I know that will break some pages, I'll accept that. (And that would give me a smaller & faster…

> I want the bare minimum that will run normal websites. I know that will break some pages, I'll accept that

If you are willing to accept quite a few pages breaking, Lynx is probably the smallest and fastest browser:

https://lynx.invisible-island.net/

Re: Let's build a Chrome extension that steals as much data as possible

#147

Post by cryptonector »

dcow wrote: post #49
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wait until you see what’s possible with executables! The most important thing is whay you tell the user - Windows says "We don't know where Trojan.exe came from, it could be a virus, are you sure you want to run it?" Chrome says: "You downloaded Trojan.exe from our store, we manage it and check it for viruses. It only asks for harmless permission, install it!" One is warning you, the other is entrapment.

Windows has an app store now too. > It only asks for harmless permission, install it! Not true. It lists all the permissions being requested. Sure the scrollbar issue is real and should be an easy fix. I don't understand why people are so confused about permissions. If the user grants your extension permission to read your browsing history so it can provide value to them, why is that a problem? It's not. The problem…

> I don't understand why people are so confused about permissions.

Ask the not-tech-savvy.

Re: Let's build a Chrome extension that steals as much data as possible

#148

Post by metadat »

mikeho1999 wrote: post #124
metadat wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no company on earth with a larger privacy organization than Google. Edit: @dogecoinbase: What you propose is a shallow and dismissive analysis of the oversimplicative variety. Please put in a little more effort before derailing an otherwise thoughtful conversation.

@metadat -- can you provide the source for that? I'm genuinely curious how much Google spends on their privacy org, and esp. how that compares with the other big tech companies.

Privacy is bundled under Trust & Security. I don't have precise numbers or estimates, but basically every Google product area has a team of Technical Privacy Engineers, TPMs, TPgMs, and VPs. They are the arbiters who can block a production release if privacy and security issues are discovered and not remedied.

No other company I can think of has invested in such a rigorous Privacy review and support structure in an attempt to reduce risk. Other BigCorps do take it seriously, but get by with much less investment. Despite this, FB et. al. are keen to poach Google Privacy employees, because there are very few Privacy Engineer in existence and Big-G pioneered modern day corporate privacy efforts. Google is a huge target for hacking and public criticism or even loss of human life due to product decisions, especially because the products are so ubiquitous and widespread (browser, mobile OS, search engine, Gmail, ad network, etc). See subjects such as Differential Privacy.

Source: I have a few friends who've worked in the G-Privacy org.

Re: Let's build a Chrome extension that steals as much data as possible

#149

Post by kortilla »

metadat wrote: post #148
mikeho1999 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

@metadat -- can you provide the source for that? I'm genuinely curious how much Google spends on their privacy org, and esp. how that compares with the other big tech companies.

Privacy is bundled under Trust & Security. I don't have precise numbers or estimates, but basically every Google product area has a team of Technical Privacy Engineers, TPMs, TPgMs, and VPs. They are the arbiters who can block a production release if privacy and security issues are discovered and not remedied. No other company I can think of has invested in such a rigorous Privacy review and support structure in an a…

Differential privacy didn’t come out of Google.

> They are the arbiters who can to block a production releases if privacy and security issues are discovered and not remedied.

Every company I’ve worked at outside of tiny startups has had this level of gating by the security team.

> No other company I can think of has invested in such a rigorous Privacy review and support structure in an attempt to reduce risk.

Which companies have you worked at in the last 8 or so years? It sounds like you’ve just watched the industry mature a bit in PII from the perspective of the inside of Google.

Re: Let's build a Chrome extension that steals as much data as possible

#150

Post by joombaga »

Shared404 wrote: post #96
Dalewyn wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>this is on a Mac that has scroll bars that are invisible until you scroll. What modern UI even has visible scroll bars by default? And assuming it's even visible (either by default or user-configured after the fact if that's even possible), what modern UI even has scroll bars wider than 1px?

> What modern UI even has visible scroll bars by default? Pretty much all of them except Mac. Can speak personally for KDE, Sway, GNOME, and Windows 10. And when they are invisible, they usually show up on mouse motion/window interaction, so it's still not as egregious.

I'm using Firefox 110, Gnome, Wayland, Pop!_OS 22.04. I only have a scrollbar when I scroll or mouse-over the scroll bar.
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