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OODA Loop

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Re: OODA Loop

#31

Post by vault »

rwc wrote: post #30
barking_biscuit wrote: post #29

Every discussion I see of the OODA loop is almost always ridiculously oversimplified to the point of being useless or just plain wrong. I watched a ~2 hour interview on YouTube with a guy who worked alongside Boyd when he was developing the idea, and the way he explained it just clicked and was one of the most beautiful ideas I've seen to date. You mostly see it depicted as a circle, well forget that as it's complete…

Can you share the YouTube video?

maybe it's this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdK4y6O-llE

Re: OODA Loop

#32

Post by _glass »

hosh wrote: post #20
_glass wrote: post #16

This reminds of the concept of D.I.E. that we use in the social sciences, describe, interpret, and evaluate. It is important to separate the stages clearly, because if you interpret while describing, this taints your observations. Evaluate can be seen as a precursor to action, because it is from the implications where science then moves forward.

OODA is a lot more than that. Since it is something developed for adversarial interactions, you’re also talking about disrupting or overwhelming the adversary’s OODA. Or another way is feeding the OODA bad intel (tainting their observations), and then stepping up the tempo so that they are making worse decisions faster. Another is taking advantage of the adversary’s “frame” (the orientation) and using that to drive t…

Oh wow, cool. Thanks for the explanation. This is very stimulating as a concept, I will dig deeper then. Actually, this can be quite productive as a research strategy.

Re: OODA Loop

#33

Post by ouid »

getpost wrote: post #22

Tangentially, Taleb tweeted a nice quote yesterday, "You don't do well by trying to be right; it is impossible for humans. You do well by figuring out when you're wrong faster than others do." https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/1627765781168619520

It is not impossible for humans to be right. This is an idiotic position.

Re: OODA Loop

#34

Post by _8j50 »

The thing about OODA is, everyone needs to be onboard.

I've had higher upd override my decision and go "nah,we're just gonna act, not gonna let you observe or orient" basically as well as peers thay go around you and take actions that prevent your observe+orient attempts.

It is intuitive to just act.

I work in infosec for context. One of the biggest non-technical issues I have is convincing people to ignore their intuition. Especially technical people who don't do IR. Like maybe you spent 50 years as a ninja coder or netadmin but I am still gonna want the threat actor loose until I have some idea of their intent or scope of compromise unless I have reason to believe they're acting on their objectives.

Actual military brass get this, you need to understand the situation before you can react. That's how ambushes happen or you get flanked.

Re: OODA Loop

#35

Post by Terretta »

Kim_Bruning wrote: post #2

Compare also PDCA [1] which is used more by civilians. Every time people rediscover rapid iteration in tight feedback loops, and every time so far it's gotten watered down to nothing again by people who get the rituals, but don't quite grok the underlying concept. [2] On the other hand, you could do practically any sort of ritual or even just laze around in bed: if you understand the underlying concept, you'll still…

PDCA is entirely unrelated to OODA. There are a bunch of graphics that confuse people into thinking they're related, by showing O-O-D-A-> in a circle. That's dead wrong.

OODA is all about feedback mechanisms:

https://co2partners.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/ooda.png

So any correspondence is a misunderstanding:

https://static.wixstatic.com/media/f16206_0206cf0c618a47b1ab...

You will not achieve the same results with an iteration.

You will only achieve similar results with "double loop" learning and informed intuition driven actions that skip the "decide" step.

Re: OODA Loop

#36

Post by lolbert3 »

varjag wrote: post #28
AstralStorm wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Casually a trained badass (or a sufficiently unhinged person) will ignore that punch and proceed to destroy you. So unless you're a super trained boxer and can knock out everyone in one, it's a waste of time. You lost the element of surprise and tempo. If you want to do some damage, do it, not rely on the opponent obliging or complying.

Everyone Has a Plan Until They Get Punched in the Mouth - Mike Tyson

[dead]

Re: OODA Loop

#38

Post by dang »

Related. Others?

Colonel John Boyd – briefings and personal papers - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34153730 - Dec 2022 (2 comments)

John Boyd - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33766979 - Nov 2022 (1 comment)

Boyd's Management Model - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28660415 - Sept 2021 (2 comments)

Boyd's Law of Iteration (2007) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28218194 - Aug 2021 (1 comment)

The OODA Loop: How Fighter Pilots Make Fast and Accurate Decisions - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26465766 - March 2021 (93 comments)

The OODA Loop and the Half-Beat - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22601681 - March 2020 (31 comments)

Ask HN: How do you apply Boyd's OODA Loop in your life? - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16447690 - Feb 2018 (10 comments)

How winners win: John Boyd and the four qualities of victorious organizations - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16179009 - Jan 2018 (1 comment)

“Patterns of Conflict” – a techno-industrial “Art of War” (1976) [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9063017 - Feb 2015 (4 comments)

John Boyd and the four qualities of victorious organizations - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=6669129 - Nov 2013 (29 comments)

Re: OODA Loop

#39

Post by quickthrower2 »

john-tells-all wrote: post #24
getpost wrote: post #22

Tangentially, Taleb tweeted a nice quote yesterday, "You don't do well by trying to be right; it is impossible for humans. You do well by figuring out when you're wrong faster than others do." https://twitter.com/nntaleb/status/1627765781168619520

Strongly agree. We need to put out a constant stream of low-quality products, and iterate quickly to achieve our goals. I used to do the opposite: write high-quality well-tested code, but very often the results weren't useful to the business by the time I was done. It would have been much better to produce a couple "sketches" of the feature first, then the business could kill or refine it as they want. Everyone wins!…

That is quite nuanced. It is good to be clear when you are building a POC or a production ready feature. Often the POC becomes the POS. But https://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/2730:_Code_Lifesp...

Re: OODA Loop

#40

Post by samatman »

KineticLensman wrote: post #3

The idea of getting inside an enemy's decision loop means that you are iterating OODA faster than they are. OODA is sometimes paraphrased by cynics as 'Observe, Overreact, Deny, Apologise'.

Or by barbarians as "Observe, Orie—" "TIMING!"
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