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EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

epa.gov

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Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#81

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet »

the_optimist wrote: post #71
piva00 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A classic example of this strategy being used in the past 10-20 years outside of the US is the UK's NHS. It's been slowly crippled, putting more and more pressure in the system, and eventually the solution to be proposed when the system finally collapses through malicious maladministration will be to privatise it.

If this idea were completely backwards, there would be no way to tell the difference from what you’ve suggested. In fact, there isn’t even a basic counterexample that holds without predominant confounding factors. In other words, unfortunately, this is theory is a non-falsifiable conspiracy theory. Edit: It is rather validating when poking a pet theory produces a negative yet non-substantive response. Sure, go on bel…

You might have got more traction had you provided at least one alternative explanation, or at least provided more detail as to why you believe the given explanation to be non-falsifiable.

It seems obvious to me that it would be falsifiable by looking at a statement like "putting more and more pressure on the system" and seeing if that has actually been happening.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#82

Post by jcranmer »

maybelsyrup wrote: post #80
mushbino wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really hoping the residents and rail workers realize they need to come together for this common cause. Unfortunately, busting the rail strike as both parties did only contributes to this problem in a major way. Nobody is coming to save us. These issues can only be resolved with people coming together in collective action. As a side note, i hope they go bankrupt and we expropriate them. Railroads are too important…

Nationalize the railroads, 100%.

Considering what happened the last time the railroads were nationalized, I doubt that's a very good idea.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#83

Post by hammock »

creato wrote: post #73
hammock wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>the combustion products are relatively benign Who told you that? Phosgene and dioxins are "relatively benign"? Dioxins might more properly be called forever chemicals, and will contaminate the soil and water of five states for decades. I understand they were trying to avoid a bleve. The solution they chose was not based principally on minimizing citizen harm though

Maybe this is out of date, but: > There is also the theoretical possibility of burning vinyl chloride forming dioxins which are known carcinogens. So far, no dioxins have been detected. https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/health-and-nutrition-histo...

Have they tested for dioxins? Can you share?

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#84

Post by ccooffee »

riffic wrote: post #50
MSFT_Edging wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fines need to start being paid in company stock, its the only thing companies are beholden to. Everything else is just a price to wreck havoc. The more the company purposefully puts people in danger, the more nationally owned they are. Especially when it comes to infrastructure like this. "Sorry, you've been nationalized due to your continued efforts in proving you cannot be trusted". Fines large enough to matter wou…

the federal government can step in and nationalize the railroad at any point as it has done in the past (woodrow wilson era iirc)

"Can" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. I do not find it a credible threat, and doubt any of these companies do either. Perhaps one could argue that the 2008-2009 TARP handling of some banks or automobile manufacturers was a "light nationalization", as the US took control of _some_ stock of the affected companies. (This stock was later sold off for a profit.) But other than that, and _maybe_ the creation of the TSA in 2001, there isn't a nationalization in my living memory.

The nationalization of railroads under Wilson lasted from December 1917 to March 1920. During this time, operation (including expansion and maintenance) of all railroads was organized by the federal government. When the nationalization was repealed in 1920, the US paid rail companies for lost profits.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#85

Post by mulmen »

MSFT_Edging wrote: post #45
jmclnx wrote: post #5

Glad to see this, and if Norfolk Southern goes bankrupt, all assets go to the cleanup and high level execs are changed or are forced to pay the difference. Also, with this being in Ohio, I hope people in Ohio realize how valuable the EPA is and stop voting for people who want to cut every Gov Program except for Defense.

Fines need to start being paid in company stock, its the only thing companies are beholden to. Everything else is just a price to wreck havoc. The more the company purposefully puts people in danger, the more nationally owned they are. Especially when it comes to infrastructure like this. "Sorry, you've been nationalized due to your continued efforts in proving you cannot be trusted". Fines large enough to matter wou…

That creates an incentive structure for regulators to fine valuable companies and to do no harm to their long term value. It’s the opposite incentive structure you want in regulators.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#86

Post by InCityDreams »

thepasswordis wrote: post #17

I'd like to see the head of the EPA, the transportation secretary, the executive team at NS, and anybody in the Biden administration who was involved in blocking the rail workers from striking move into East Palestine and live there, with their children. Don't want to do that because it isn't safe? Then buy these people all new homes. We can start the bidding at $1M per household. I cannot overstate the fury that I f…

I see you got the actual point you really wanted to make right at the end, however poorly.

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#87

Post by kevviiinn »

jcranmer wrote: post #82
maybelsyrup wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nationalize the railroads, 100%.

Considering what happened the last time the railroads were nationalized, I doubt that's a very good idea.

Which was what, exactly?

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#88

Post by xwdv »

jmclnx wrote: post #5

Glad to see this, and if Norfolk Southern goes bankrupt, all assets go to the cleanup and high level execs are changed or are forced to pay the difference. Also, with this being in Ohio, I hope people in Ohio realize how valuable the EPA is and stop voting for people who want to cut every Gov Program except for Defense.

Why would high level execs be forced to pay a difference? They are ultimately just employees. Does a senior software engineer get forced to pay a difference when a critical error results in damages to an end user?

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#89

Post by piva00 »

the_optimist wrote: post #71
piva00 wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A classic example of this strategy being used in the past 10-20 years outside of the US is the UK's NHS. It's been slowly crippled, putting more and more pressure in the system, and eventually the solution to be proposed when the system finally collapses through malicious maladministration will be to privatise it.

If this idea were completely backwards, there would be no way to tell the difference from what you’ve suggested. In fact, there isn’t even a basic counterexample that holds without predominant confounding factors. In other words, unfortunately, this is theory is a non-falsifiable conspiracy theory. Edit: It is rather validating when poking a pet theory produces a negative yet non-substantive response. Sure, go on bel…

Jeremy Hunt co-authored this in 2005 [0].

Look at the bits about denationalising the NHS.

I'd like to see your rebuttal to this book, genuinely [1].

Edit: also this op-ed contains some more examples of the process going on [2].

Please, refrain from name-calling and instead point exactly where I'm wrong on what you so called a "conspiracy theory". It's a baseless comment and you haven't provided me anything to look further.

[0] https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/ebr.2005...

[1] https://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Dismantle-NHS-Easy-Steps/dp/178...

[2] https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/oct/25/boris-...

Re: EPA orders Norfolk Southern to conduct all cleanup actions related to derailment

#90

Post by dsfyu404ed »

jmclnx wrote: post #5

Glad to see this, and if Norfolk Southern goes bankrupt, all assets go to the cleanup and high level execs are changed or are forced to pay the difference. Also, with this being in Ohio, I hope people in Ohio realize how valuable the EPA is and stop voting for people who want to cut every Gov Program except for Defense.

It's much more complex than "EPA good".

The EPA wasn't looking like they were gonna do much until the situation was so fucked, or at least fucked looking, that there were potential political brownie points to be earned crapping on their inaction at which point they cleaned up their act and did something.

Environmental protection has been a very mixed bag for middle America over the past ~60yr. This disaster is doing anything but endearing the EPA to the people of Ohio or Middle America generally. I think at best it's a lateral move.

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