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Ask YC: How to survive grad school?

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Re: Ask YC: How to survive grad school?

#11
That feeling of something being rotten at the core, even it though looks okay to the external world, really sucks. I had it once, too. I looked up at the ceiling and asked myself, "What am I doing here?" I was out a few weeks later, and have never regretted the decision.

I think that given that you're only a year in, you should switch labs if at all possible. You should look around at other projects in your vicinity, and evaluate the vibe of the people working on them, using your newfound experience. Go to group meetings if you can. Do you see the cast of characters you're seeing in your current environment (politicos, slackers, and friendly ignorami)? Or do you see neat, intense people, working quietly in a deep way on problems that interest them?

When you've identified a new lab you might like to join, pitch your transition as a surge of interest in the new area, not as discontent with your old lab. You likely do not have enough demonstrated accomplishment to bring to the table to make the new lab want to take the risk of bringing on a malcontent.

This approach will also keep you from intentionally or inadvertently burning bridges with people in your old lab, some of whom are likely quite good people, who you will meet again in your field.

Re: Ask YC: How to survive grad school?

#12
Some... play along, trying to get their own stuff done on the side. Others... are happy to have a good place where they can surf the net the whole day, while pretending to be scientists. Some of my collegues are completely clueless... but being generally friendly goes a long way.

Congratulations! Your training is nearly complete! Welcome to the ranks of the enlightened! ;)

Your essay is pretty comprehensive and one can't really do it justice in less than an entire evening in a bar. But I'll offer some random observations.

You need to focus on a concrete goal. "Research is my main dream" is not a goal: It's a not even a real mission statement. "Get out of grad school with my degree" is a goal. "Get out of grad school right now, degree or no degree" is a goal. "Hang out in grad school while starting three YC companies" is a goal. "Go skiing every weekend until they kick me out of grad school, then get an industry job" is a goal. None of these is necessarily better than another; it depends on you.

You need to learn how a research career plays out in the real world. No, scratch that -- you've obviously learned it; you need to take a vacation from academia long enough to accept it. ;) The fact is: if the reviewers are happy, and the funding is good, you're an academic success. That's the goal of academic research, and if it disgusts you, you should get out of academia permanently. Because, frankly: "Finding elegant solutions to difficult problems that have wide-reaching implications" is almost uncorrelated to success in academia. You can be nearly as successful, with much less risk, by publishing over-complicated solutions to easy problems, or non-solutions to difficult problems, or incomprehensible solutions to niche problems. And you will find that the overwhelming majority of your colleagues spend most of their time on one of these paths, because they require less risk and less time, which leaves more time to go to conferences and write grant proposals and supervise students and curry favor with your colleagues and deliver lectures and all the other things that comprise actual day-to-day life in most academic jobs.

You need to realize that you are probably a very successful grad student. You can't tell right now, because you're still absorbing the truth: Most research projects are failures. That's what research is all about: Failing, over and over, but taking copious notes each time so that you have an idea of why you failed. As a student, such failure matters very little. My own Ph.D. thesis was a big catalog of various mistakes, ranging from small-scale implementation difficulties to grand-scale theoretical misconceptions that took three generations of grad students to unravel. And it went over just fine. People love reading about other people's learning experiences. It helps them learn what to avoid.

I'll repeat this, because it's important: You're a student. Nobody expects you to actually solve an earth-shattering problem. They expect you to do a bunch of work, help write some grants, write up something that your committee agrees is novel (but not necessarily earth-shattering) and then graduate and go work on something else. Which you should do. Unless you decide to just start working on something else right away, which would also be good.

Before this post gets any more Steve-Yeggesque: Yes, you can do research outside of academia. (You sound like a comp sci student, so take a moment to pity those EEs whose graduate work requires millions of dollars of capital equipment and a sizeable staff of techs. And even we can find ways to do research outside of academia.) You will find that it's much harder to get recognition for your work outside of the academy, but you have to ask: Are you in research for the adulation and the money and the girls, or are you in it for pleasure? Consider that many of the most successful discoveries were made by (what were then regarded as) semi-obscure cranks. (Think: Mendel.) Consider the delightful personal pleasures that crackpottery has to offer.

And, finally, I would note that if industry pays 30-40% more than your current job, that means you could work 60% of a full week at an industry job and still have time left over for your side projects.

Re: Ask YC: How to survive grad school?

#13
post #6

hi, first post ever! basically... what you have, sir, is a day job with low expectations and no IP ownership conflict of interests. Please don't waste this opportunity. Of course you have to keep delivering value to the project, but if you are disciplined you can be done by lunchtime and devote the rest of the day to your own pursuits. When you get a corporate job, you will feel the same. But then, you will have to m…

no IP ownership conflict of interests

This is a bit of an exaggeration. Universities claim IP, too. Although it is true that most of them are pretty incompetent at it, and they don't much like to sue their successful graduates because it makes for very bad press.

Re: Ask YC: How to survive grad school?

#14
My own life situation is pretty messed up, so take this with a grain of salt. But:

> I have always dreamed of becoming a scientist. I always loved maths, sciences, puzzles, theory but also programming and engineering.

For hope, keep in mind that there are other people like you. And that some of them do achieve the kind of goals you state.

> I find it the most soul-crushing experience to continue working while pretending that the whole thing is getting anywhere.

If things have gotten to this point, you definitely need a change. Take it from someone who did not make the change: Continuing in such a situation leads to a downward spiral. I guess there can eventually be some learning value in the experience, but it is a brutal journey and the return ticket is not guaranteed.

Evaluate what you have, and what is missing from achieving your goals -- or (they say it's the journey, not the goal, that matters) from making progress towards your goals.

It sounds like you have a pretty stable financial and professional position. One that also provides you access to a lot of useful tools. How much time, effort, and "spirit" do you have to give to the organization in return for this? If you strike off on your own at this point, do you have a plan or some idea of how you will get these things: Self-sufficiency and the tools you need?

Not that lack of a detailed plan should necessarily stop you. But do you know your next steps and have some comfort with them?

I should add, too, that although some aspects of your current professional community suck, it can be easy to undervalue one's participation in such a community until it is gone. Sounds like there are people there who you respect. And there is likely professional and social contact you would miss. Being in such an environment can almost inherently help one to remain "plugged in" to one's field, as well as providing exposure to things one might not otherwise encounter or consider.

So, you have yourself, and you have the situation you are in. What is stopping the progress?

Is it the situation? For example, a heavy weight of demands for your assigned work may leave you with insufficient time and/or energy left over to pursue your interests.

Is it you yourself? Do you need more external guidance to follow your desired path? (This isn't necessarily a bad thing, although it can have a bearing on the kind of work you may want to focus on. It may be painful, but it is a question that eventually needs an honest answer.) Are you a person who fundamentally cannot accept situations that you find "wrong"? (This, also, is not necessarily a bad thing. People who have refused to accept the status quo and/or incomplete or faulty reasoning, have eventually forced very valuable re-evaluations. This, too, can be a painful process and require fortitude.)

While you are in your current position, you might focus on -- I kind of hate to use this word, not being the most social person myself -- networking. Try to get to know the people you do respect, and their work, better. Learn what other people are doing both at your institution and elsewhere. I imagine it's true in academia and government organizations as well as in business, that people hire people. If people you like and respect come to like and respect you, this may lead to new opportunities, and those will be with people you know and trust.

Finally, I was recently in touch with an old friend who's part of the a very large research project. And, for all the intellectual brilliance you might imagine is there, some of the individual qualifications, or lack there of, and a lot of the personal behavior, as described to me was a bit stunning. There are some people there -- researchers -- for largely political or even bedroom reasons. There apparently is A TON of self-interest, and competition.

Some of this appears to be inherent in research these days. Resources are limited, and the type A personalities will push hard to get what they can. People become very territorial. Aggression plays a significant role in at least some people's success. I say this looking in from the outside, based on this friend's comments; it may not be an accurate and/or an entire picture, but it's the one I've gained.

My friend is one of those "brilliant" people who's always had to find his own path -- hardly mainstream and without the pretty, mainstream CV/resume some might be looking for. But, he can figure anything out, if it interests him, and is amazingly effective at "getting shit done". People who get to know him learn this and trust him. When someone else wasn't working out, one of those people brought him in to this project.

My point is not to ramble on, but to say that for all the assholes, there are also good people out there, who "get shit done". And some of them get to know each other. It doesn't erase the bullshit, but it compensates. And apparently it lets them achieve their goals, if with some aggravation.

Some of those people who "get shit done" will do so regardless of the environment. If there is an obstruction, they will find a way around it, or a way to obviate it. Or they may simply ignore it, come up with a minimum effort to supply required reporting, and get on with the things that matter (to whatever project they are officially on and/or to them). My description is, I guess, a bit simplified and even romantic. But in essence, it's how some people work.

I'll try to tie this back to your situation. What do you feel are the real stumbling blocks? Is it the environment and what it demands? Or do you find yourself needing more direction?

Regardless of whether you remain or not, you'll need some direction to pursue. Preferably one you are passionate about. You may not remain passionate about it forever, or even past the next year. But once you own it, environment becomes a means to an end. Hopefully not one you simply exploit entirely to your own ends -- sounds like you've already seen some of the effects of such an attitude in what you currently face. But one you turn, as best you can, to your purpose. And one where you contribute, because a better environment helps you meet your purpose.

And if you do stay, perhaps a bit of that attitude might encourage your colleagues and improve the atmosphere a bit.

Then again, I myself am currently in the pits. Take this with a grain of salt. But I'll submit my response nonetheless, in case there's any value either in or between the lines.

P.S. I would avoid actively opposing people or engaging in hostility, even where justified. Senior researchers can burn you with a lasting mark. Rather, if you stay, I'd be tempted to think of it as more of a guerrilla campaign. One where you are out to achieve your goals while leaving any ignorant powers that be as blissfully unaware as possible.

Re: Ask YC: How to survive grad school?

#15

This post is important and I think that your feelings echo those of many thousands of graduate students. Let me talk a little bit as a rare case: I've worked now under 7 advisors on 7 different projects and now I'm finally almost done. Most of the projects have been as you describe: "after almost a year, it is fair to say that I have good view of the project and it is almost surely a giant failure." That's how most p…

"To some extent, though, the system works. It does so for the same reason that some startups work: because as you look at the details you find new things that you couldn't have predicted. Those new things are your research."

I think this used to be true when grants were small, and groups were scrappy and independent. However, today the funding agencies are pushing mega-projects; gigantic labs and "collaborative" research dominate the landscape, and the tendency is toward "million-monkey" results -- throw enough randomly pecking monkeys at any problem, and something good will probably emerge. This is a good career strategy if you're a PI, but it's not so hot if you're a monkey.

My advice to the OP is to get out while there's still time: switch to a different group, and start over. In your first year of grad school you're (probably) independently funded, so it's easy to do, and there isn't much of an intellectual tie to whatever work you've been doing. You also know a lot more about what to look for in a PI and a research program. Write off this year as a mistake, and move on.

In grad school, you've got to fail quickly, and choice of environment is no exception. If you're unhappy at the end of your first year in a group, you'll never be happy -- it only gets harder, and you don't want to be the student to who has a fantastic blowout with your advisor in year three or four, where there's little chance of recovery.

So, my advice is to change labs. Failing that, quit. Grad school isn't worth it, unless you can have a great experience. But whatever you do, don't get so far in that you feel that you can't quit, even though you hate your life and your work.

Re: Ask YC: How to survive grad school?

#16

Some... play along, trying to get their own stuff done on the side. Others... are happy to have a good place where they can surf the net the whole day, while pretending to be scientists. Some of my collegues are completely clueless... but being generally friendly goes a long way. Congratulations! Your training is nearly complete! Welcome to the ranks of the enlightened! ;) Your essay is pretty comprehensive and one c…

Nice gem from the 'Yegge-esque'ness:

"Consider the delightful personal pleasures that crackpottery has to offer."

Re: Ask YC: How to survive grad school?

#18

This post is important and I think that your feelings echo those of many thousands of graduate students. Let me talk a little bit as a rare case: I've worked now under 7 advisors on 7 different projects and now I'm finally almost done. Most of the projects have been as you describe: "after almost a year, it is fair to say that I have good view of the project and it is almost surely a giant failure." That's how most p…

I know of one exception. He explained his system: he does the research, then he gets grants for his research. This gives him time to do new research and he writes new grants based on that. He delivers because he only proposes to do what he has already more or less done!

You have just described my thesis advisor: he was offset -2 years on the 3-year grant periods. The publication system is so slow that his whole approach was timed just right.

Grant reviewers love news of great success, soviet style. They don't question how can one produce a scientific publication just one year into the grant period, which tells a lot about their review process.

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