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My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

danlawton.substack.com

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Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#301

Post by zozbot234 »

kodah wrote: post #296
zozbot234 wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is exactly why "tripping" is heavily frowned upon by serious meditators and spiritual practitioners. Experiencing "ego death" (i.e. the three marks of existence) without having the previous spiritual grounding for it to help free you from attachment to the ego, is only a recipe for being even more deeply mired in craving and dukkha.

Those probably aren't meditators I would be listening to, it sounds as unhealthy as the person that attaches their identity to their ego return. Psychedelics are a tool, and the different doses you figure out are ways of using that tool. Ego death requires a fairly heroic dose, something on the order of 3-5 grams of mushrooms for most strains. This, to me, is comparable to the isolation and introspection without brea…

> Psychedelics are a tool

I don't think most users of psychedelics view them as a "tool" for serious spiritual practice. They just think tripping is a lot of fun.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#302

Post by mahathu »

detourdog wrote: post #257
arbitrage wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so what you mean to say is that you're just making things up as you go? neat.

True, but I don't see that as distinguishing me from anyone else.

Experiencing psychotic breaks in your childhood distinguishes you from other people though. It is not a common experience.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#303

Post by ccooffee »

spccdt wrote: post #294

Reminds me of a similar anecdote from Holly Elmore in 2021 [1]. [1] https://hollyelmore.substack.com/p/i-believed-the-hype-and-d...

Thanks for sharing. Your article feels a lot more intimate (less analytical) than the OP's. In particular, I was delighted to read the "Harm: loss of 3D vision" section because I now realize that my experience of rarely perceiving 3D isn't just me making things up. In particular:

> I can pop in and out of 2D and 3D vision at will, it’s just that 2D is the default, and 3D always feels more real.

I _wish_ I could do this at will. Probably once a month or so I notice that I have 3D vision and become entranced with just looking at things around me. Usually the feeling subsides within an hour, but it's rarely a "pop out" and more a gradual decline in how 3D things are.

And now I'm off to the wikipedia rabbit hole to learn more about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stereopsis_recovery

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#304

Post by DasCorCor »

I think this author's perspective and story are really important. It's pretty clear that he overdid it and that there is an issue in some (possibly most) of the western Buddhist groups in marketing mindfulness as a cure all panacea. Everything has a concave dose-response curve, even water and radiation.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#305

Post by jelling »

starkd wrote: post #250
dayvid wrote: post #113

Doing intensive meditation retreats is a Navy Seal hell-week for your mind. If people took that into consideration, they would be better prepared for the results. It's much better to start with a simple meditation practice or go on a shorter retreat (1-3 days), build up a base and periodically dip your feet in deep waters. There are too many people in the west who treat it like an extreme sport and get burned out in…

Never understood the need for meditation retreats. The only purpose of gathering would be to meet and converse with other people. Not to sit and listen to them breathe.

I suspect the primary driver for 1 - 2 week retreats is that is the average Western vacation length and the mindful companies are maximizing revenue relative to CAC.

Formal Buddhist training - such as to be a teacher within the Kadampa tradition - can be done once a week over a course of years. Other traditions training requires full-time reading training over years.

I wouldn’t recommend someone try to master an instrument in 7 - 14 days as learning takes time for integration and people progress at different rates. So I’m skeptical of why anyone would suggest that for attempting to master the mind.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#306

Post by kayodelycaon »

detourdog wrote: post #257
arbitrage wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

so what you mean to say is that you're just making things up as you go? neat.

True, but I don't see that as distinguishing me from anyone else.

Either we have different definitions of psychotic break or you're a pretty high outlier. I don't know anyone from my bipolar support group who had a psychotic break before puberty. Most of them haven't had one.

I had bipolar symptoms at age 5 and severe depression at 9, but didn't have a break until I was 26.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#307

Post by dayvid »

starkd wrote: post #250
dayvid wrote: post #113

Doing intensive meditation retreats is a Navy Seal hell-week for your mind. If people took that into consideration, they would be better prepared for the results. It's much better to start with a simple meditation practice or go on a shorter retreat (1-3 days), build up a base and periodically dip your feet in deep waters. There are too many people in the west who treat it like an extreme sport and get burned out in…

Never understood the need for meditation retreats. The only purpose of gathering would be to meet and converse with other people. Not to sit and listen to them breathe.

I think for a good deal of them you're in silence (no cell phones or talking with others). It's really valuable to be in silence if you haven't before. You can gain awareness of random thoughts and things you don't notice when you're surrounded by distractions. Doing it for too long or with no stimulation (e.g. only sitting all day and meditating or wandering off w/ no structure when you can maybe do some activities in-between) can lead to strange things popping up.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#308

Post by waboremo »

cal85 wrote: post #195
waboremo wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not entirely sure if any study demonstrating the benefits of meditation or mindfulness considers counting 9 to 1 repeatedly an act of either. That aligns much more closely with the advice given to those with panic disorders in how to ride out their panic attacks or prevent them when they feel coming on.

The comment didn’t claim it was an act of either, either.

We're in a thread about mindfulness.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#309

Post by Eupraxias »

realce wrote: post #200
2-718-281-828 wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

you have a point

It's also just a mind that might be desperate for a core identity after having its last one logically dissolved through introspection. While ego can hijack identity for it's own mad desires, an identity is required for the actuation of relational actions on a basic level. With no "center" from which to make decisions, the functions of your mind tasked with making choices will panic - this is a foundation of brainwash…

"So dissolved identity > Panic attacks when choice-satisfaction plummets > subconscious suggests all kinds of cartoonist extremes for an easy and powerful identity > Conscious mind agrees to play along, uses this character to make decisions about > Choice-satisfaction rises. "

I'm sure it's different for most others, but I had the opposite experience. It has introduced a great calm into my life.

From where I am now, I see identity as the central problem we face as a species.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#310

Post by electrondood »

DontchaKnowit wrote: post #161
jossclimb wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I expect there will be higher cases of psychosis happening on intense retreats, but as anecdotal as this, I had it happen to me (albeit not as extreme as OP) after meditating for much shorter periods (approx 10 minutes up to an hour). I really did not see it coming. For some context, I don't know of any deep seated trauma that I have and I liked to think of myself as someone robust mentally. I experienced a deep real…

Interestingly you describe the shattering of your delusion as the return of your ego - I think it is the opposite. I think you invited an inflated ego into your life through your meditation : "I should become a guru and help humanity" <-- that is ego speaking. The shattering of this idea is is not ego but humility, to my way of thinking.

You get it.

These adverse experiences are the ego's last-ditch effort to maintain cohesion. It's the same with psychedelics. If you let go in the face of the terror and accept, the terror becomes utter bliss.

In response to these experiences, ask "Who exactly are they happening to?"

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