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My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

danlawton.substack.com

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Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#261

Post by wirrbel »

denton-scratch wrote: post #252
wirrbel wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's more than one kind of mindfulness, and more than one kind of vipassana Definitely true, by itself sati/smrti is a hard-to-translate term. > Shamatha is "calm abiding", which I think is what the McMindfulness crowd are trying to teach. It should really be treated as a sort of universal preliminary for most other types of meditation. But it's perfectly reasonable to treat shamatha as your main practice (as I…

No idea what Bhante Vimalaramsi is. I used the term as a synonym for sravakayana; I think I probably used it incorrectly, it should probably include a lot of mahayana practice (because mahayana sutras). Maybe it just means "practices that don't depend on revealed teachings". At any rate, "not tantrayana".

Ah, Bhante Vimalaramsi is an american monk originally from the theravada tradition who IIRC uses Sutrayana for his take on what the Pali canon says, as he deviates from the theravada interpretation of the text.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#262

Post by jvanderbot »

jossclimb wrote: post #127
cutler wrote: post #114

I can't help thinking that most of these examples of negative side effects are related to intensives rather than meditation/mindfulness itself. There's a world of difference between 20 minutes a day and 10 days in a retreat looking inward. Maybe it's just better for you in short bursts, not long marathons. I once experienced negative effects after joining a Buddhist meditation group while at university. Every time I…

I expect there will be higher cases of psychosis happening on intense retreats, but as anecdotal as this, I had it happen to me (albeit not as extreme as OP) after meditating for much shorter periods (approx 10 minutes up to an hour). I really did not see it coming. For some context, I don't know of any deep seated trauma that I have and I liked to think of myself as someone robust mentally. I experienced a deep real…

The stories we tell ourselves matter. Staring into the mind and seeing nothing is a powerful and frightening story. There may be a more positive reframing, but it's also not a mandatory story to tell yourself.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#263

Post by robertlagrant »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #145
cutler wrote: post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Before enlightenment chop wood, carry water. After enlightenment chop wood, carry water.” We need the mundane earthly activities to balance any inward quests.

That sounds pragmatic; in the end, you still have to return to the real world and get on with things like survive. Although this talk about becoming enlightened sounds like people have given up on themselves and realilty entirely to pursue something in their minds. It sounds like a self-induced state of tripping balls.

Cthulhu discussion Buddhism. Am I tripping?

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#264

Post by javier123454321 »

whitepaint wrote: post #192
jeremyt wrote: post #131

I have quite a lot of experience with meditation. I've done thousands of hours, including more than ten retreats that involved sitting for as many as 18 hours per day. I've also done many healing modalities, including somatic experiencing. From my perspective, we have taken "Buddhism" and "meditation" and we have done what us Westerners almost always do: we boil it down into "stuff that does stuff" and "everything el…

Very beautifully put. I completely relate with the last 2 sentences. Do you have recommendations for books?

Find a teacher you trust, and inspires you to become like them. Books can help, but I'd say to use them as a compliment.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#265

Post by wafflemaker »

jossclimb wrote: post #127
cutler wrote: post #114

I can't help thinking that most of these examples of negative side effects are related to intensives rather than meditation/mindfulness itself. There's a world of difference between 20 minutes a day and 10 days in a retreat looking inward. Maybe it's just better for you in short bursts, not long marathons. I once experienced negative effects after joining a Buddhist meditation group while at university. Every time I…

I expect there will be higher cases of psychosis happening on intense retreats, but as anecdotal as this, I had it happen to me (albeit not as extreme as OP) after meditating for much shorter periods (approx 10 minutes up to an hour). I really did not see it coming. For some context, I don't know of any deep seated trauma that I have and I liked to think of myself as someone robust mentally. I experienced a deep real…

So there is this pattern of light spiritual practice (ok, not in your case, here light was the heavy) being safe and chill, And of heavy spiritual practice having the potential to be dangerous.

I see an analogy to using psychedelics as described in this lecture fragment (starts around 12th minute) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j72C_lDHTk0 Ram Dass on "When is it right to use psychedealics?"

There he talks about two types of psychedelic usage. Recreational - here we don't need to prepare, we should use little of the substance and can enjoy f.ex. our favorite music sounding a little better. Transformational - here, we have to prepare thoroughly studying spiritual/philosophical books, have a proper fast before the experience and have a proper guide. This way the potential for a difficult experience lessens and the potential for transformative experience grows.

Interestingly, the lecture excerpt starts with description of ancient/historical use of psychedelics, where they were used in rituals aimed at transformation of the subject. Subject attended the ritual being thoroughly prepared, something completely different than being offered psylocibin mushrooms/acid on a party. I wonder if this advice (going light doesn't require preparation, going heavy requires preparing as much as possible trough fasting and study) could also apply here, to meditation practice.

Sorry if this idea/lecture was posted here already, had only limited time to read and reply in this thread.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#266

Post by jcbrand »

zozbot234 wrote: post #260
kodah wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I experienced a deep realisation that our thoughts manifest from nowhere and not from ourselves (words fail me here) and that the construct of 'me' was completely false and was just a reverberation of my environment. I understood there was no me. If you were tripping this is called ego death. In some circles, including mine, what you described after: > I started to think that I should be looking to help other peopl…

And this is exactly why "tripping" is heavily frowned upon by serious meditators and spiritual practitioners. Experiencing "ego death" (i.e. the three marks of existence) without having the previous spiritual grounding for it to help free you from attachment to the ego, is only a recipe for being even more deeply mired in craving and dukkha.

> And this is exactly why "tripping" is heavily frowned upon by serious meditators and spiritual practitioners.

This is needlessly judgmental. I know life-long meditators, 30+ of years disciplined practice who sometimes take psychedelics.

I'm not a fan of various aspects of the psychedelic scene, e.g. the spiritual bypassing and the narcissism that can sometimes come from it, but let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Usage of psychedelics can be profoundly healing and helpful.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#267

Post by jmfldn »

My personal take is that mindfulness as a stress reliever is normally fine in small doses. It can often be very beneficial in lowering stress. If you have a known underlying mental health problem however, I would recommend taking this up with some prior medical consultation all the same.

Mindfulness employed as part of a spiritual practice however, should be practiced within the right context and with the right guidance. You have to remember that mindfulness is Buddhist in origin and, as a practice, sits within a whole web of practices that all support and interpenetrate. You absolutely cannot remove mindfulness from the other aspects of the path. It makes no sense to divorce it from right livelihood, right effort etc.

Tldr. If you want spiritual progression, respect the tradition. That might sound a little conservative, but this is my own take on it at least. Jumping into a long retreat with no prior exposure to this amount of meditation and without a wider practice to ground it in, is not wise imho.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#268

Post by javier123454321 »

coldtea wrote: post #50
rg111 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did Buddha define Buddhism? Even in time of Buddha, there were thousands of Buddhists who were practising Buddhist while remaining in a family. Buddha, once addressing Ananda, told him that there were hundreds of disciples who attained Nirvana while remaining in a family and with a profession. I find this kind of opposition to Western Buddhist practices absolitely repulsive and baseless. Yes, I studied Buddhist…

> Even in time of Buddha, there were thousands of Buddhists who were practising Buddhist while remaining in a family. Which is neither here, nor there. My distinction is not about following Buddhist as "true to the spirit of Buddha" or not. It's not about "studying" or not, either. It's about Buddhist as a historical phenomenon, a tradition, emergent and adopted by specific cultures in specific ways of life, and bein…

So do you say that it is impossible to be a buddhist in the west? Maybe, but as a person that has been practicing a single tradition for a decade, made many life decisions based on that as the fundamental center of my life, helped run centers and actually see my work and family life completely integrated with my spiritual practice (and I chose to do so freely), your comment is comical. Anyway, I never strove to be a "buddhist".

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#269

Post by zozbot234 »

jcbrand wrote: post #266
zozbot234 wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And this is exactly why "tripping" is heavily frowned upon by serious meditators and spiritual practitioners. Experiencing "ego death" (i.e. the three marks of existence) without having the previous spiritual grounding for it to help free you from attachment to the ego, is only a recipe for being even more deeply mired in craving and dukkha.

> And this is exactly why "tripping" is heavily frowned upon by serious meditators and spiritual practitioners. This is needlessly judgmental. I know life-long meditators, 30+ of years disciplined practice who sometimes take psychedelics. I'm not a fan of various aspects of the psychedelic scene, e.g. the spiritual bypassing and the narcissism that can sometimes come from it, but let's not throw the baby out with the…

> I know life-long meditators, 30+ of years disciplined practice who sometimes take psychedelics.

I'm not dismissing spiritual practice, but psychedelics are entirely incidental to it and can be a snare for the unprepared mind. What's "profoundly healing and helpful" is always the spiritual part, not the means used to achieve it.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#270

Post by robocat »

HeckFeck wrote: post #59
me551ah wrote: post #27

What he experienced is actually expected, deeper states of meditation bring out even harder experiences. Meditation is marketed in the west as some sort of a relaxation pill, designed to cure anxiety and other mental ailments. It's actually not. Meditation is a hardcore exercise for the mind and if your mind is not strong enough then deeper states will break you.

Curious. It sounds like meditation has been misappropriated in the same way as therapy. Therapy _should_ bring up difficult emotions and experiences from the past because they are often the root of dysfunction and frustration in the present.

Opening past mental wounds is often like massive invasive surgery, requiring immense skill, plenty of observation afterwards, and a lengthy recovery.

Unfortunately many councillors and psychologists are barbers, butchering people’s minds, or infecting them with hokum.

The worst I have ever heard of was getting a bunch of troubled teenagers together, a session getting them to share their horrific experiences, then sending them home with zero concern for the consequences. I mean, you are already struggling and then you need to process other people’s stories of rape, family violence, and worse. Or you need to face whatever Pandora’s box demons you have shared. Ouch.

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