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My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

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Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#201
post #114

I can't help thinking that most of these examples of negative side effects are related to intensives rather than meditation/mindfulness itself. There's a world of difference between 20 minutes a day and 10 days in a retreat looking inward. Maybe it's just better for you in short bursts, not long marathons. I once experienced negative effects after joining a Buddhist meditation group while at university. Every time I…

Haven’t we all looked inwardly too much already? I’d list that as a top reason for the general malaise I see around me. I’ve never really found looking inward that useful, looking outward and acting outward and thinking about others has to be a 100:1 ratio on returns vs looking inward.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#202

All of the real meditation traditions around the world - including the ones inside of Christianity - spend decades training highly skilled teachers to help people 1) avoid problems like this, and 2) clean up problems like this when they do happen. And even so those traditions never, ever (in my experience) describe themselves as anything other than perilous. "The way is long and narrow." "Like a snake entering a bamb…

Thanks for sharing, going to check this out later off my work computer. I've been trying to become more disciplined with my meditation practice, I try to do 10 minutes every day.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which is why I originally asked what was meant by "real". From a consensus-realistic perspective, things that are purely subjective and non-material things are definitely less real or at least less-obviously real. From a solipsistic perspective the only real thing is one's subjective experience, and everything else is in doubt. But most people are not capable of consistently maintaining a solipsistic perspective, so…

Even the solipsistic must surely realise that there are simulacrum of external reality that can be dismissed as, say, 'it was just a shiver' rather than being a 'real' part of one's subjective experience. Reflecting, I guess I'm questioning if the solipsist really believes all that which is put before their minds is really "experience", per se. As sure as anything, Pyrrhonism is where it's at!

Necessarily, that which is experienced is experienced. The belief that one merely thinks is experiencing something but is actually mistaken is untenable. The question is whether the feeling of these keys under what I think are my fingers is caused by something that exists more or less as I perceive it, rather than some contrived hallucination or an illusion. But I'm not able to doubt that I am in fact feeling what I feel. Besides mathematical truths, it's all I can be certain of.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#204

I suffered from bad anxiety for a while post pandemic. Mindfulness meditation made me feel better during and for about half an hour afterward, but it wasn't "me again": it was some altered state that not only wasn't addressing the underlying issues (that I've since made great strides on in psychotherapy). I felt periods of great calm, but it was as if I was taking some drug to achieve an altered state. I read a lot a…

Me too, I had always had low level anxiety+depression but at the end of the pandemic it went out of control. Your comment made me think that people like to self medicate. Maybe a 10 day silent retreat is not that different from a heroic dose of psilocybin. Both are certainly high risk (potentially high reward) maneuvers to treat a mental health problem.

Meditation was mildly helpful but it wasn’t really a practical solution for a working parent. You can’t hit pause on your life very often. SSRIs it is for now

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#205
This feels like part of a western habit of cherry-picking from other traditions, and, in this case, not understanding the context we're pulling from. We see things like Zen as fun, playful and liberating, but miss the whole part of it that entails "killing the self". It's a practice of systematically disassembling what you thought you were until there is nothing left...and this is a process that is generally done in a highly structured, supervised way. It's telling that we just pluck out the practice and think it will let us deal with our shit so we can get more done at work. I say this from the context of having studied in Zen temples in Japan in my 20s, and having done myself real harm.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#206
The dark-night-of-the-soul phenomenon is associated with vipassana meditation.

In the Platform Sutra dating from perhaps around 700 AD, Huineng (ostensible author) talks about people going insane from ill-advised meditation methods of suppressing body and mind.

It seems like these early 'mystical' offshoots around meditation-heavy religion typically don't typically involve or speak well of a lot of meditation, truthfully. Zen Master Bankei didn't want his monks to meditate at all.

The problem is that meditation is a cargo-cult. Early in the history of Dzogchen, they had trekcho, "cutting straight through", not a heavy emphasis on meditation. Early in the Zen tradition, they had precious few words to say anything well of meditation at all.

Zen Master Foyan wrote, maybe around 1200ish?:

> Buddhism is an easily understood, energy-saving teaching; people strain themselves. Seeing them helpless, the ancients told people to try meditating quietly for a moment. These are good words, but later people did not understand the meaning of the ancients; they went off and sat like lumps with knitted brows and closed eyes, suppressing body and mind, waiting for enlightenment. How stupid! How foolish!

As someone into this stuff, there is kind of something there--it's the advaita vedanta like realization that this is it, the eye never sees itself. It's hard to describe in a few words, and has nothing at all to do with vipassana or jhanas. Alternatively, I think it has to do with switching to the floodlight perception of the right hemisphere as the default resting state of the mind. The left hemisphere tends to over-dominate because it works on positive-feedback--the more it engages with something, the more it wants to engage. It gets overheated and starts to turn its tunnel vision into a primary aspect of ordinary awareness and places a really heavy overlay on direct experience. The right hemisphere does the more typical negative feedback/diminishing marginal utility thing most of the time.

I'm a big fan of direct-path teachings like Loch Kelly gives. I think heavy meditation, especially vipassana, is just a cargo-cult hazing.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#207
I’m inclined to think this stuff is more correlation than causation.

Meditating is a weird thing to do. Outside of eastern religious practice at least. You get some some semi-normal people who do it, ray dalio comes to mind, but mostly it attracts people who aren’t mentally well to begin with. It’s exactly the group of people you’d expect to have these kinds of problems. The same group that should avoid weed and shrooms and for the same reasons. There are a lot of these people on hn and in the tech world, overachievers high on the neuroticism scale. A normal person doesn’t meditate more than 30 minutes a day. That alone is a symptom of deeper issues.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#208
post #114

I can't help thinking that most of these examples of negative side effects are related to intensives rather than meditation/mindfulness itself. There's a world of difference between 20 minutes a day and 10 days in a retreat looking inward. Maybe it's just better for you in short bursts, not long marathons. I once experienced negative effects after joining a Buddhist meditation group while at university. Every time I…

I expect there will be higher cases of psychosis happening on intense retreats, but as anecdotal as this, I had it happen to me (albeit not as extreme as OP) after meditating for much shorter periods (approx 10 minutes up to an hour). I really did not see it coming. For some context, I don't know of any deep seated trauma that I have and I liked to think of myself as someone robust mentally. I experienced a deep real…

A couple of years ago, I started a light meditation practice (10-20 minutes) and did it for about a month with good results. At that point, I read this article (on Hacker News) and spent the next two years terrified this would happen to me.

I had struggled with panic disorder in the past, but CBT pretty much fixed it for me. This article triggered my first panic attacks in years and led to a constant sense of dread and anxiety. It was so terrifying to think that a simple mental process could potentially trigger a breakdown (and like you, I had a family to take care of).

Fast-forward a couple of years, and I'm moving towards the view that these breakdowns are simple anxiety disorders that just happen to be triggered by meditation, in the same way that a panic attack triggered my anxiety disorder when I was young. I don't think there's anything particularly special or mystical about it - it's just our stupid brains activating the fear response, and it appears that the same methods for dealing with anxiety disorders work here.

I feel like in a way I was the control group for an experiment - can a fear of meditation provoke the same response as meditation itself?

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No doubt they are serious. After I made my comment I thought about editing it provide nuance. My problem is more about language and giving names to things and society adherence to the mean. As children we experience many psychotic breaks as we adjust to the world. It could be that as we mature the frequency is reduced but that doesn't mean the episodes are inherently bad. They could be a normal part of a consciousnes…

> As children we experience many psychotic breaks as we adjust to the world. Neat, I didn’t know this. Where could I read about it? :) Most of the google results I’m getting talk about childhood schizophrenia. (Which is a thing and quite serious.)

Sorry I'm winging it based on experience:) That just happens to be my observation and why I spoke up.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#210
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be noted that Daniel Ingram is following the Mahasi sayadaw method and is a bit from of a fringe Buddhist subculture promoting (if I am not confusing things „dry insight“ meditation). Maybe the cultivation of the non-dry aspects is actually helpful.

I am a noob, does dry insight mean no concentration practices? The book says a significant amount of concentration practice is necessary before it is possible to make any progress with insight practice, and also recommends continuing concentration practice as a stabilizing and comforting influence against the destabilizing and often unpleasant insight journey.

I guess I am also a noob and I am not an expert on the Mahasi method, but in general buddhist meditation has like 3 pillars, metta (loving-kindness meditation, also features self-love), samatha: (tranquility or calm abiding), vipassana (insight). Samatha and vipassana would be preconditions to awakening (bodhi).

samatha contains sati [mindfulness], samadhi [stable attention], piti [joy], passaddhi [tranquility], upekkha [equanimy]).

vipassana is insight (among others) into anicca [impermanence], sunnata [emptyness], dukkha [stress], paticcasamuppada [interdependence of phenomena], anatta [no-observable self],....

The meditative states of jhana (dhyana in sanskrit, chan in chinese, Zen in japanese although the meaning has changed while the term traveled further east) originate from samatha practice.

Overall most Theravāda traditions or traditions that take the pali canon as a source kind of use this metta, samatha/sati, vipassana classification and acknowledge jhanas as meditative states. However, the meditation practice in the theravāda tradition was revived in the 19th/20th century only, so there is in the theravāda tradition no continuous meditation teaching lineage, so people had to make sense of the Pali canon source texts, which aren't exactly a meditation manual as we expect it today and there are concurrent approaches.

I am just a casual meditator (like 2-3 times per week) but overall an avid reader so I have seen quite a few different takes on how metta, mindfulness and insight meditation relate, most aren't dismissing one of these practices entirely, but the order and emphasis on when to practice what differ greatly. "dry-insight" is a I think to be understood as a counterpoint to voices that stated that a buddhist needs to practice concentration first and potentially even reach the jhanas before practicing Vipassana. So concentration / sati is not entirely dismissed. The idea of "dry-insight" is, that fewer meditation hours practicing concentration may be enough to develop insights and it is thus also advertised as a "quicker way" to awakening.

Overall, when reading or listening to meditation teachers, I am cautious about claims to "speed", which makes me a bit reserved about the Mahasi noting method crowd.

What made sense to me was: Laypeople should practice Metta meditation in any case. Practicing Sati (mindfulness) and Samādhi (concentration) is like taking your brain to the gym & spa, it should also help you a lot in dealing with stressful emotions, if your meditation object are your senses (breath, feet in walking meditation, hands while washing dishes) this seems to be a rather well-grounded activity and not inherently dangerous (unless maybe you have a serious psychological condition).

Proficient enough in Sati (mindfulness) and Samādhi (concentration), the route could go to practicing samatha and vipassana. Now my assumption would be that if you directly overemphasize vipassana and your skills for concentration, tranquility and equanimity aren't sufficient to contain reactions when 'insight' hits you.

That being said, Vipassana covers a wide range of stuff. Like "Body Scans" as done in Mindfulness based Stress reduction (MBSR) are thought of IIRC as vipassana practices, and IMHO they could just as well be thought of as sati practice.

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