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My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

danlawton.substack.com

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Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#151
I'd like to know what physical activity and exercise the author was getting during this period. I believe that 10 - 12 hours of breath counting was mentioned, and I can't imagine that being physically still for that long is good for the body. Some of the stuff about involuntary jerking and the author's shoulder reminded me of my experience with a pinched nerve due to a bulged disc in my neck.

Also, I'm a bit suspicious of the quiet references to alcohol and drugs. I'm far from a tee-totaler, but I recognize that one man's casual drinking or smoking (i.e. THC) is another's depression or anxiety-inducing dose.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#152
Yeah maybe because your mind was too full. Don’t be too full of mind. Just meditation. Very simple. Let go. It’s not easy, for most people I think, but it is simple.

Good to see so much sensible awareness and respect of the powerful nature of these practices here in the comments! It gives me hope.

Also, I really wanna wholeheartedly agree with what one person said which was that the people are probably not getting a lot of exercise during that time. I think physical activity exercise is so essential to mental health and the body's ability and the mind's to regulate itself. Our bodies were evolved and designed to require certain amount of movement every day, or fairly fucking regularly and without that I mean, you just get mentally ill, really. I mean, mostly. I mean you need regular physical activity to maintain good mental and emotional and I believe energetic health. So the physical activity is one thing that’s really important and actually one main point of hatha yoga is to provide that physical activity foundation and to prepare the body to be able to support those kinds of meditation practice.

I think another thing that’s happening is our solar system is passing through the galactic current sheet so there’s more high energy, radiation and particles impacting The earth, effects on the magnetosphere as well as an uptick in solar events affecting earth and so all of the stuff will drive people a little bit more crazy.

Add that to as other comments, said how these meltdowns seem to happen after intensive‘s. Also, consider the economic aspects of these intensive that are normally high outlay sort of transformation type workshop things that are at least from one level, essentially designed to generate a large amount of money from participants. I’m not saying everyone who creates those things is shady at all, but I think there is that there’s an economic aspect of those things that is intensive as well, and sometimes that probably coincides with less Karen attention to authentic and safe practices, and consideration towards the participants… and in any case for someone joining that it’s not the same as if you’re just going to yoga class three times a week or less for 90 minutes or whatever.

People don’t realize how powerful some of these simple practices are and they’re playing with things they don’t know how to control and they don’t know what they are and things get out of hand. So doing those intensively day in and day out, the sort of like the energetic equivalent of basically taking people to Everest base camp and saying “well you know you’ve seen the intro video and here’s a map we will be with you in radio contact. you’re ready to go! up there is your direction.”

The other thing I think is going on is that the Indians as in people from the subcontinent, you know Hindus and others from from India, I think well aware of the powerful effects on subtle energy that these types of practices can have and people are playing with energies and abilities and information that they have no framework to understand or interpret, and they have no ability to control, or even the awareness of what they’re doing on an energetic level. And things are bound to go wrong, especially the sort of commoditization of commercialization of a lot of these practices, at least in western countries although it’s probably happening in many places, things are bound to go wrong in that case, where these powerful techniques are divorced from the whole context of teaching and awareness for what they’re actually doing, and how do use them in a safe and sustainable manner. That may sound to woo for some people but it’s real and I think some of what is happening is it by participating in the such practices people are unwittingly unlocking and plugging into these sorts of abilities, energies, information, and they don’t have the training or the framework or the ability to be able to handle that and so they go nuts.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#153
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mindfulness as practiced by the typical western audience (largely secular, young professionals) is well represented. If you want to take something else away or are looking for alternative discussions about the nature of spirituality itself: go ahead, but that's not the study for that. Only mindfulness meditation as practiced in western society in the fashionable way.

Maybe secular young professionals all share some trait that can be associated with sense of superiority? And it’s not really about mindfulness or meditation?

study controls for that.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#154
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It should be noted that Daniel Ingram is following the Mahasi sayadaw method and is a bit from of a fringe Buddhist subculture promoting (if I am not confusing things „dry insight“ meditation). Maybe the cultivation of the non-dry aspects is actually helpful.

I am a noob, does dry insight mean no concentration practices? The book says a significant amount of concentration practice is necessary before it is possible to make any progress with insight practice, and also recommends continuing concentration practice as a stabilizing and comforting influence against the destabilizing and often unpleasant insight journey.

I assume that's a reference to reaching awareness of the three characteristics by "noting" perceptions and sensations in the mind as if blasting enemies in a video game. That's a very intense vipassana practice and while it apparently makes for quick progress towards full awakening, one could argue that it's not for everyone.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#155
post #27

What he experienced is actually expected, deeper states of meditation bring out even harder experiences. Meditation is marketed in the west as some sort of a relaxation pill, designed to cure anxiety and other mental ailments. It's actually not. Meditation is a hardcore exercise for the mind and if your mind is not strong enough then deeper states will break you.

Sounds as conveniently unfalsifibale as any more patent pseudoscience.

It's easy to dismiss a whole class of phenomenon just because there isn't an ample understanding of it. And much of mind is unfalsifiable becuase we don't yet understand how to make heads or tails of the largest neural network in our existence: our brains.

And before you look at my username, instead look no further than "Placebos". Why does a sugar pill named "morphine" work? Obviously, handing them a teaspoon of sugar does nothing, but when relabeled, works.

And most of the occult as well is of mind - either my own mind, or that of others. Science even has a semi-explanation with the holographic universe theory, which says that every particle is encoded with the information of everything, just at the simplest resolution. And if mind could be tuned so, could access everything within their own mind. (The old occult principle is 'As above, so below.')

But it's easy to paint things you either don't like or don't understand as "pseudoscience". Flat earth used to be science. Earth-centric orbits used to be science. Wearing masks full of herbs when dealing with plague victims used to be science.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Curious. It sounds like meditation has been misappropriated in the same way as therapy. Therapy _should_ bring up difficult emotions and experiences from the past because they are often the root of dysfunction and frustration in the present.

And then what? I'm genuinely curious as a loved one rejects therapy exactly because she already knows what causes of her depression are and does not see any use in debating them further as they only bring her down. I don't have experience or knowledge to explain how it would help her.

Maybe she knows herself, hopefully she isn’t getting pressured to do something she doesn’t want to do. Ask her what, instead of talk therapy, she thinks would be helpful. The answer might be enlightening.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#157

I’m an autistic person and it sounds like in some way this person achieved exactly the point of certain forms of meditation like this which is to open up awareness. And I think as many autistic folks will tell you, being very aware is extremely difficult and is mentally and physically taxing. If you aren’t prepared for it I could indeed see it being extremely disturbing. Being exposed to all your inner workings and t…

Was going to post this. There are reasons we have brains with selective attention instead of constant mindfulness, and a whole spectrum of disorders that arises when that sort of a filter breaks down. (I am lucky. I don’t have it bad.) Unfiltered mindfulness of this sort sounds like basically the same thing.

Pretty much. I’m bipolar and every moment I need to have some awareness of where my mood is and do course corrections to head off episodes or emotional overreactions.

I quite literally can’t trust how I feel from minute to minute. Knowing my logical analysis of situations can also be compromised causes me to run deeper mental self-tests several times per day.

I’m used to this but it’s a constant low-grade drain on my attention.

Meditation is dangerous for me as it quickly leads to dangerous psychosis. (Life is a video game and I can’t really die.)

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#158
post #114

I can't help thinking that most of these examples of negative side effects are related to intensives rather than meditation/mindfulness itself. There's a world of difference between 20 minutes a day and 10 days in a retreat looking inward. Maybe it's just better for you in short bursts, not long marathons. I once experienced negative effects after joining a Buddhist meditation group while at university. Every time I…

I expect there will be higher cases of psychosis happening on intense retreats, but as anecdotal as this, I had it happen to me (albeit not as extreme as OP) after meditating for much shorter periods (approx 10 minutes up to an hour). I really did not see it coming. For some context, I don't know of any deep seated trauma that I have and I liked to think of myself as someone robust mentally. I experienced a deep real…

> I experienced a deep realisation that our thoughts manifest from nowhere and not from ourselves (words fail me here) and that the construct of 'me' was completely false and was just a reverberation of my environment.

Wait, is this not common knowledge??

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#159
Scott Alexander had reviews of Dan Ingram and related 'modern day enlightened'. I seem to recall a suggestion that these people could be considered to have developed something like a self induced, positive version of dissociative personality disorder.

They would get angry or hungry or grumpy, but 'they' were a step away from this person that was hungry or angry or whatever.

It's like they had zoomed in and drawn some separations between the various layers of consciousness that we consider all one and the same.

Fascinating, but not something I'm interested in doing.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#160
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're describing a psychosis.

Maybe everyone should experience a little psychosis.

Having had two psychotic breaks, I do not recommend the experience. The last one caused something like hardware-level damage that took years for my brain to recover from.
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