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My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

danlawton.substack.com

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Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#121
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds as conveniently unfalsifibale as any more patent pseudoscience.

Anything that happens only inside peoples’ minds is in a pretty tough realm to study. It’s okay to be afraid of it or to assume it doesn’t mean anything, but it would be really stretching “skepticism” to say that people don’t have visions/hallucinations of all kinds in response to meditative practice. You’d just be using “falsifiability” to avoid feeling uncomfortable.

Well danger if done wrong is a good selling point. it suggests that the method must be powerful. I'm sure some gurus exploit this (manipulative technique) to be perceived as more serious or experienced. The problem is now, speaking about the (real or not) dangers of meditation could also induce some kind of nocebo effect in practitioners. And since most people open for this stuff will be more on the irrational spectrum of humanity ... the danger of meditation may be a self-fulfilling prophecy.

We speak about mindfulness here but there is the same discussion and warnings about kundalini for example.

Obviously focusing (or not) on something and sitting for a long time will alter you state of consciousness to some degree like a trance. But are there real and objective dangers besides the rewiring of your brain?

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#122
It sounds like he tortured himself then got PTSD from it.

Most things are fine when done in moderation, most things are bad when taken to the extremes.

"13 days to go" suggest this was some crazy regimen, if you would do that to prisoners I bet it's actually considered torture.

If I read about his past, it sounds to me like he might have some underlying mental health problems that would be good to address. Not by guru's, retreats, or pseudoscience, but psychologists and other professionals.

I think he does come to the right conclusion that the extremes can be very harmful. They are not that far from cults, always some guru or leader, then many people blindly following their weird practices based on absolutely nothing but pseudo science and believe, with a tendency to get more extreme (and more expensive!) the deeper you get into them.

Meditation is fine if done in moderation and as long as you don't expect it to solve all your problems. It can help with certain things, it also won't solve serious mental problems.

Working through mental health problems is no fun and a lot of work with many ups and downs, there is no easy solution, there are no shortcuts. Get professional help, get therapy, get medication if needed, be kind to yourself, and just keep working at it one step at a time.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#123
> In fact, in Britton’s study, 60% of the participants reporting distressing experiences were meditation teachers, rebutting Davidson’s argument that experienced meditators don’t end up in difficult territory.

Meditation teacher !== experienced meditator. Author seems to have been hanging out in a McMindfulness milieu, with lots of people who are "professional" practitioners, and in an environment where lots of people treat meditation as something divorced from the Buddhist religion.

I was annoyed when my teacher insisted that Buddhism was not a "science of mind", or some body of secular practices; it was intrisically religious. I tried for a decade to live with that, but eventually I gave it all up.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#124
All of the real meditation traditions around the world - including the ones inside of Christianity - spend decades training highly skilled teachers to help people

1) avoid problems like this, and

2) clean up problems like this when they do happen.

And even so those traditions never, ever (in my experience) describe themselves as anything other than perilous. "The way is long and narrow." "Like a snake entering a bamboo tube." And so on.

I put together a system for solo practitioners working with absolutely minimal oversight in 2015. People doing it since then, I talk to them roughly once (on average) to check they're doing it right, then don't hear back from them for years until they're getting into the weird "foothills of enlightenment" end stage stuff -- if they make it that far. Most don't, they plateaux. Which is fine, that's a good, safe place to be.

Instructions here. There's a bunch of other stuff in that same directory structure. It's fine.

http://files.howtolivewiki.com/.meditation_2015/transcripts/...

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#125
post #114

I can't help thinking that most of these examples of negative side effects are related to intensives rather than meditation/mindfulness itself. There's a world of difference between 20 minutes a day and 10 days in a retreat looking inward. Maybe it's just better for you in short bursts, not long marathons. I once experienced negative effects after joining a Buddhist meditation group while at university. Every time I…

> Maybe it's just better for you in short bursts, not long marathons.

Actual marathons aren't great for your body either, especially if it's not something you've diligently trained for properly, so that makes sense.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#126
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So not having the tool to measure something makes it not part of reality? Makes me think of how our worldview every now and then expands, from geocentrism to heliocentrism and so on. Surely the earth revolved around the sun before it was understood to be that way. And surely our experiences are real even though our minds are isolated from eachother. In Thomas Mann's Doctor Faustus, the devil told Adrian roughly this:…

You're confusing the words "true" and "real". It is true that the Earth revolves around the Sun, and the orbit is also real. That 2+2=4 is true, but it's not real. The electrochemical activity in your brain is real, and the fact that it causes your subjective experience is true. Your subjective experience is true to you (you're experiencing the things you're experiencing), but it's unknown to me. It is also of unknow…

Thank you for your reply. In most ways I agree, in all ways actually. But my point is that the term "real" doesn't mean strictly material. The picture I'm painting is to bring away "reality" from strictly material and external. I do this to argue with the point above your original reply, saying that the scientific method is incompatible with these things. We're in philosophical territory and I won't pretend to be an expert but I think we will have plenty of tools to bring the scientific method even to our most personal experiences.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#127
post #114

I can't help thinking that most of these examples of negative side effects are related to intensives rather than meditation/mindfulness itself. There's a world of difference between 20 minutes a day and 10 days in a retreat looking inward. Maybe it's just better for you in short bursts, not long marathons. I once experienced negative effects after joining a Buddhist meditation group while at university. Every time I…

I expect there will be higher cases of psychosis happening on intense retreats, but as anecdotal as this, I had it happen to me (albeit not as extreme as OP) after meditating for much shorter periods (approx 10 minutes up to an hour).

I really did not see it coming. For some context, I don't know of any deep seated trauma that I have and I liked to think of myself as someone robust mentally.

I experienced a deep realisation that our thoughts manifest from nowhere and not from ourselves (words fail me here) and that the construct of 'me' was completely false and was just a reverberation of my environment. I understood there was no me. This was really nice for about two weeks. I started to think that I should be looking to help other people and become a guru, perhaps write a book to help humanity, but then my ego (I expect) came back with a vengeance, kicked my ass and brought me back down to earth with a crash (maybe its a safety system). I experienced huge panic attacks like I have never had before, I carried this constant feeling of absolute dread in my soul, like a sense of impending doom. I have heard it described as the dark night of the soul. Some try to push through this, but I held back as i cannot afford to have a complete meltdown as I need to care for a young family and hold down a job.

I spoke with a well respected meditator about this, and they said the some people are wired to have an accelerated experience and are able to obtain deep introspection with limited time on the cushion.

I would say I am almost back to normal now. I had to stop all meditation and instead focused on health food, sleep habits and lots of exercise. My main mediation type thing is now running, it quietens my mind, but the grounding effect of the movement keeps me in a safe play pen to explore my reality.

meditation is incredibly powerful, in the west we have confused it as being a corporate stress ball that you squeeze or like a lavender scented, candle lit bath while listening to Enya. The truth is, it can reveal incredibly deep seated aspects of ourselves that we are in no way prepared to witness, let alone accept.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#128
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hell is mentioned within the context of Theravada as well As far as I'm aware, Theravada is a body of teaching that developed late - around the same time as Mahayana. It's not some kind of "what the Buddha actually taught".

It’s the oldest branch.

So they claim.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#129

I have been told that Trungpa said "they always run". The context was people on retreats jumping up from their meditation cushion and running away as fast as they can, not to reach some destination, but just to escape. I've never witnessed this, but I never did many retreats. The practice wasn't the jhanas, it was meditation on emptiness. The idea is that when you achieve a certain level of realisation into emptiness…

The running is to bring in line the higher cognition centers to the physiology of body which is what brain should be doing, sort of like syncing up.
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