My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021) • Hacker News Board

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#91

Post by dorchadas » Tue, Feb 21, 2023, 1:03 PM UTC

fxtentacle wrote: post #2

I'm submitting this article because I thought it was somewhat objectively written and an interesting subject to consider. My impression (from far away) of some of the meditation gurus is also that they look like they are kinda addicted to their new "hobby". Also, it's rarely healthy if your income depends on you strongly believing in something (anything, really). "60% of the participants reporting distressing experie…

I think these things are well known, and the problem is that meditation is being lifted from its original context by people who don't understand it - and who can't navigate these things that are supposed to be navigated with teachers.

And then top it off by corporations promoting mindfulness as a panacea for everything so they don't have to worry about fixing underlying issues and can keep us running for longer, and I'm surprised this isn't more commonly talked about.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#92

Post by cahooon » Tue, Feb 21, 2023, 1:05 PM UTC

lr4444lr wrote: post #60

me551ah wrote: post #27

What he experienced is actually expected, deeper states of meditation bring out even harder experiences. Meditation is marketed in the west as some sort of a relaxation pill, designed to cure anxiety and other mental ailments. It's actually not. Meditation is a hardcore exercise for the mind and if your mind is not strong enough then deeper states will break you.

Sounds as conveniently unfalsifibale as any more patent pseudoscience.

Anything that happens only inside peoples’ minds is in a pretty tough realm to study. It’s okay to be afraid of it or to assume it doesn’t mean anything, but it would be really stretching “skepticism” to say that people don’t have visions/hallucinations of all kinds in response to meditative practice. You’d just be using “falsifiability” to avoid feeling uncomfortable.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#93

Post by lanstin » Tue, Feb 21, 2023, 1:06 PM UTC

melx wrote: post #40

me551ah wrote: post #27

What he experienced is actually expected, deeper states of meditation bring out even harder experiences. Meditation is marketed in the west as some sort of a relaxation pill, designed to cure anxiety and other mental ailments. It's actually not. Meditation is a hardcore exercise for the mind and if your mind is not strong enough then deeper states will break you.

Meditation is looking into one's mind to uncover the dirty things that one will have to face and "improve" upon. I meditate since 2011.

Are you judging the various thoughts and emotions as dirty or clean? That is a very different practice from what I have been taught about Zen.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#94

Post by lib-dev » Tue, Feb 21, 2023, 1:08 PM UTC

jshaqaw wrote: post #66

coldtea wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I certainly have met Buddhism pratictioners in the West that were deep into the way of life and culture. They are "big in the way of life and culture" the same way they'd be deep in punk rock or effective altruism. Not as people living in a culture and tradition that is Buddhist - in an environment that nurtered and fosters its practice, and with all that comes from actual living tradition of a religion. It's more…

Rather sweeping statements about an awful lot of people you have never met. It is actually easier to be superficial with spiritual practice when immersed in its culture. Plenty of “spiritual” practitioners are playing social status games, going through motions in a societally rewarded and expected manner, etc… Perhaps friend you are projecting your own dissatisfactions with finding an all encompassing one true meanin…

Agreed. In fact a true follower of the Buddha would eventually get the point where they wish to try to integrate back into the business world if that’s where they came from. Lots of karma to resolve there lol.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#95

Post by crawfordcomeaux » Tue, Feb 21, 2023, 1:10 PM UTC

A cultural addiction to dualism meeting a practice that opens one up to what lies beyond the innate denial of dualism will typically result in fear or pain. Setting expectations about what one will or won't uncover when one digs into the unknown subconscious is a recipe for all this.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#96

Post by pigsty » Tue, Feb 21, 2023, 1:13 PM UTC

denton-scratch wrote: post #84

pigsty wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western Buddhism is based off an aesthetic interpretation of Zen Buddhism. If Buddhism in East Asia is appropriation and people in East Asia have no authority to talk about it, defending western Buddhism, which is based off the customs of a Japanese interpretation (based off a Chinese branch), is a strange turn to take. (hell is mentioned within the context of Theravada as well)

> hell is mentioned within the context of Theravada as well As far as I'm aware, Theravada is a body of teaching that developed late - around the same time as Mahayana. It's not some kind of "what the Buddha actually taught".

It’s the oldest branch.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#97

Post by zikzak » Tue, Feb 21, 2023, 1:15 PM UTC

HeckFeck wrote: post #59

me551ah wrote: post #27

What he experienced is actually expected, deeper states of meditation bring out even harder experiences. Meditation is marketed in the west as some sort of a relaxation pill, designed to cure anxiety and other mental ailments. It's actually not. Meditation is a hardcore exercise for the mind and if your mind is not strong enough then deeper states will break you.

Curious. It sounds like meditation has been misappropriated in the same way as therapy. Therapy _should_ bring up difficult emotions and experiences from the past because they are often the root of dysfunction and frustration in the present.

There is a reason that it is normally recommended that serious/deep meditation practice be done with a teacher. It's isn't so people can scam newbies out of money. When you really practice meditation consistently over a long period of time, you experience a lot of different states of mind. Some of these can make you feel "god like" as if you were enlightened. Teachers bring you down to Earth and remind you that it's just your mind being present while not meditating that makes you feel that way. You can experience strange visions like flashing lights and things. Some people interpret these as a mystical experience or something but it's probably just some random crap your brain is doing in a deep, meditative state. The most common effect, though, is a stripping down of all the lies we tell ourselves. This can be very, very traumatic. The realization that you are mostly making things up as you go and that you might not even have free will can be very heavy and hard to take. You might question who you are and how you have lived until this point.

The real issue, though, is the "I'm enlightened" crowd. They are insufferable and need to brought back down to reality before they go to a dinner party and annoy everyone.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#98

Post by manuelmoreale » Tue, Feb 21, 2023, 1:15 PM UTC

dijit wrote: post #58

detourdog wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a hard time with this article. The pool the subjects were pulled from is suspect to me. They also didn’t interview any Rabbis, Priests, Mullahs,…. They study spirituality of a small subset of people pursuing it.

Mindfulness as practiced by the typical western audience (largely secular, young professionals) is well represented. If you want to take something else away or are looking for alternative discussions about the nature of spirituality itself: go ahead, but that's not the study for that. Only mindfulness meditation as practiced in western society in the fashionable way.

Maybe secular young professionals all share some trait that can be associated with sense of superiority? And it’s not really about mindfulness or meditation?

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#99

Post by ergonaught » Tue, Feb 21, 2023, 1:15 PM UTC

I read this when it was first published and I'll just continue to accept the author's assertions that they are experienced/informed/educated and point out that the "mindfulness" style of "meditation" is entirely different from the concentration-based styles of "meditation".

It at least sounds like they were unaware of the differences, and unaware that the concentration-based styles are quite well documented as tending to produce various phenomena (glorious or horrifying and all points between and beyond) on the route.

Even ignoring "awakening kundalini" types of things that other commenters mentioned, this is where most practitioners would say this kind of experience is why it helps to have a "guru" for assistance.

Re: My mindfulness practice led me to meltdown (2021)

#100

Post by dayvid » Tue, Feb 21, 2023, 1:16 PM UTC

nprateem wrote: post #24

passion__desire wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would just say the feedback loops between awareness got magnified by a lot. I would suggest the author to read the book "Kundalini: The Evolutionary Energy in Man". In that book, Gopi Krishna relates how his attention got fractured experienced sensations far intense. > Often in the silence and darkness of my room at night I found myself looking with dread at horribly disfigured faces and distorted forms bending and…

Yes, the author should totally study Kundalini. Krishna's story is scary. It's even mentioned in Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha and The Mind Illuminated. Some traditions make it a central component (tantric & yogic), while some ignore it (Zen), but it's there in all of them. The core of religions flowed out of these experiences IMO. There should absolutely be greater awareness that this is where meditatio…

Agree 100%. Many western meditation practices, especially mindfulness, take the soul and context out of meditation and treat it like an extreme sport or pilates class. Reminds me of when Tim Ferris went on a prolonged fast before doing a mindfulness retreat and almost has a full mental breakdown.