Related to this would be Nagel's paper, "What Is It Like to Be a Bat?" We can't say what sort of echolocation sensation a bat has anymore than Mary can say what a color looks like before she leaves the black and white room. We're in the same position when it comes to bird vision. We can't say what the world would look like with four primary colors. What does that fourth primary color look like? We don't have a word f…
Human tetrachromats do exist, but it’s X recessive. They can differentiate some hues that others can’t.
What Mary Didn't Know (1986) [pdf]
11–20 of 62 posts
Re: What Mary Didn't Know (1986) [pdf]
#12Related to this would be Nagel's paper, "What Is It Like to Be a Bat?" We can't say what sort of echolocation sensation a bat has anymore than Mary can say what a color looks like before she leaves the black and white room. We're in the same position when it comes to bird vision. We can't say what the world would look like with four primary colors. What does that fourth primary color look like? We don't have a word f…
> There is a fundamental epistemological limit to our ability to know how to combine the two. It doesn't mean the world itself has such a division. We just can't cognate how to reconcile the two. I’m not convinced there’s any indication of a fundamental limit to our cognitive abilities. What if we just don’t know how subjective experience works in the same normal way that we’ve not known how other stuff works until w…
It’s not the same problem as figuring out how the brain works physically or how subjective experiences compare in peoples brains or observable states, but whether say our experience of seeing red is the same. Or what it’s like to be a bat. You can’t break that barrier, there is not observation into another subjective. It’s like Heisenberg Uncertainty, at a certain point we reach the unobservable and by the nature of our existence can’t know what’s beyond.
Re: What Mary Didn't Know (1986) [pdf]
#13Earlier quoted context omitted.
I use echolocation all the time. Granted, I can definitely not explain how a bat feels, but... I was born with 20% vision, and kept it for roughly 6 years. After that, the world officially went dark. However, my brain was quite stubborn in not accepting that. From that point on, my auditory system, in particular echolocation, took over. My internal field of vision did not change much. Echolocation, and my prior knowl…
That's very interesting. Bat neuroscience might be able to tell us whether bats use echolocation in a similar fashion as you described (they do also have ears and eyes, although many don't have color vision). If not, then probably they have an entirely different experience that humans when using echolocation.
Re: What Mary Didn't Know (1986) [pdf]
#14Re: What Mary Didn't Know (1986) [pdf]
#15Related to this would be Nagel's paper, "What Is It Like to Be a Bat?" We can't say what sort of echolocation sensation a bat has anymore than Mary can say what a color looks like before she leaves the black and white room. We're in the same position when it comes to bird vision. We can't say what the world would look like with four primary colors. What does that fourth primary color look like? We don't have a word f…
I think you’re missing the argument.
We can easily assign words to things we know exist. That’s not the issue.
When we define things (like “naturalism”) we are invoking symbols and their semantics, all the stuff Mary presumably has access to in her room.
In her room, Mary already understands subjective experience, the brain mechanics behind it, etc.
The realization that there is more outside of Mary’s room suggests that our conceptualizations are limited / not accurate.
If that’s the agreed case how can anyone cling to a universal “naturalism” with a straight face?
With Mary’s room, haven’t we already accepted that formal statements are incomplete - and therefore would be silly to call universal?
Re: What Mary Didn't Know (1986) [pdf]
#16Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's very interesting. Bat neuroscience might be able to tell us whether bats use echolocation in a similar fashion as you described (they do also have ears and eyes, although many don't have color vision). If not, then probably they have an entirely different experience that humans when using echolocation.
It is different - not metaphysically or entirely, but... echolocation for humans is rather long-wave (although it's experienced as vision.) You can't - I couldn't - see a door edge wise so I could walk into doors pointed right at me. But bats want it for insect location, I'm betting. Much more precise, much higher frequency.
Re: What Mary Didn't Know (1986) [pdf]
#17Additionally, while Mary may only receive information in black and white, she perceives in full colour and can see the colours of her own skin and clothes.
The combination of the first and second facts means that Mary can conceive what it would be like to see the colour red before she ever sees it. The first time she sees green she will know that she has perceived some colour, even if she gets the label wrong and calls it red for instance.
Re: What Mary Didn't Know (1986) [pdf]
#18I still don't know what it is supposed to mean to know what it's like to see red. Having seen red, I have a memory of having been in a state of seeing red. Not having seen red I wouldn't have such a memory. But this has no consequence for physicalism. I can imagine myself in the situation of having seen red, e.g. imagining myself viewing a red apple. But I have aphantasia and so I'm certainly not remembering or imagi…
One in which Mary steps out of her room, sees a rose, and absolutely nothing new is added to her understandings.
She already had it all sorted out in her study. In many people’s understanding of “naturalism” that wouldn’t be any surprise.
But that’s not this world.
Re: What Mary Didn't Know (1986) [pdf]
#19Related to this would be Nagel's paper, "What Is It Like to Be a Bat?" We can't say what sort of echolocation sensation a bat has anymore than Mary can say what a color looks like before she leaves the black and white room. We're in the same position when it comes to bird vision. We can't say what the world would look like with four primary colors. What does that fourth primary color look like? We don't have a word f…
Actually we can. For example, there are reports of the older generation dreaming in black and white due to the black and white tv [1], in much the same way, the days event can shape the dreams someone has. On the physical side, because science is now showing how light and other environmental stimuli affect chemical processes in the body and brain [2,3,4], science is not only discovering the ability to emit and measure, but then find instances in nature where its being used.
>what would the rest of the EM spectrum look like if we could see it all
Ultraviolent is a good example, the lens of the eye tends to block this, but people with no lens due to early cataract operations which just removed the lens, and anomalous lens have reported seeing UV light. [5,6]
>What would a scientific theory that could answer these sorts of questions look like?
So it depends on whether experts take reports seriously or not, experts applying real scientific conjecture, and/or whether funding and permission can be obtained. We can all detect Infrared (heat) through our skin, but we cant really see it. On another point, which perhaps best describes and exemplifies the boiling frog syndrome is the fact that UV destroys folates, yet we dont really detect as it takes place because its taking place over a larger perceptible window of time [7], at best those suffering from SAD or depression may feel better after a session in the tanning salon or by the end of the tanning session depending on how much UVA light the flo tubes are chucking out. It also highlights that some vegetables like Brussel Sprouts a vegetable high in folates may be harmful to your mental health during winter months, especially considering its a stable for Xmas dinners. But back to the point of what would a scientific theory look like, we already see that ad-hoc practice in action in the scientific world. Generate, Detect, Search for examples, Elucidate, Pontificate.
Scientific knowledge is not really performed in a scientific manner because it relies on the ad-hoc, if not, chaotic ability to detect phenomena, a known stumbling block, hindered in part by capitalism of all things and we all know no one person has all the ideas, and we know that some test equipment is massively expensive and in the past didnt exist. So the low hanging fruit of being able to devise tests using our own senses and imagination, think Newton's gravity theory when hit on the head by an apple, or even theory's from ancient Greeks demonstrates that in practice, scientific discovery has been extremely unscientific despite the protestations of its adherents.
>There's no magic or supernatural stuff here. It just means our scientific description of the world lacks the subjective. There is a fundamental epistemological limit to our ability to know how to combine the two. It doesn't mean the world itself has such a division. We just can't cognate how to reconcile the two.
I'm sure you are aware of the internet and search engines [8,9], if not perhaps films giving tantalizing inspiration and hope [10] of possibility's and insights into how to cognate and reconcile the current and future time beyond the realms of religions which constantly harp back to the past.
Not bad for an undergraduate of https://rb.gy/xhuwo9 if I might say so, whilst I might have spent time reading a dictionary, in order to create obedience to authority with the use of uncommon words from the vernacular of the commons, I'm not engaging in it here consciously, because the military have taught me some highly efficient means to get my message across which isn't compatible with those tenets from the law and order fraternity.
Re: What Mary Didn't Know (1986) [pdf]
#20I still don't know what it is supposed to mean to know what it's like to see red. Having seen red, I have a memory of having been in a state of seeing red. Not having seen red I wouldn't have such a memory. But this has no consequence for physicalism. I can imagine myself in the situation of having seen red, e.g. imagining myself viewing a red apple. But I have aphantasia and so I'm certainly not remembering or imagi…
It might help to imagine a different world. One in which Mary steps out of her room, sees a rose, and absolutely nothing new is added to her understandings. She already had it all sorted out in her study. In many people’s understanding of “naturalism” that wouldn’t be any surprise. But that’s not this world.
And indeed had she that knowledge, nothing new would be added by seeing one in person.
The implausible part is presupposing any person could ever have a complete enough understanding of all physical knowledge to achieve that.