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Why do modern pop songs have so many credited writers?

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Re: Why do modern pop songs have so many credited writers?

#41

Post by ryandrake »

manachar wrote: post #27
droptablemain wrote: post #15

Modern pop music is a more refined commercial industry than it was in the past. It's been sliding further and further away from art and toward the commercial. It is what it is.

"Art that doesn't sell is just a storage problem." Had an artist tell me this once and it stuck with me ever since. He was referring to paintings, but has generally held for every other artistic endeavor. Looking through history art has always been commercial - it's just the audience that changes. For music, musicians who got paid used to be focused on the tastes of just the wealthiest folks who liked to go and be se…

Far be it from me to try to define art, but at some point I imagine an artist must stop and ask him/herself "Is my work an original thought? Am I telling a story here, sending a message, engaging with an idea, being provocative, being honest, making my audience feel something, or is my work... mass-produced background mall muzak? A soulless sculpture for some corporate headquarters?" Pop music has always been right in the middle, toeing close to that line between "mostly art" and "mostly commercial product". Where the difference between what the artist wants to say and what the audience wants to see/hear is blurry. I'm sure when you enter that world, surrounded by producers, business people, investors, execs, marketing, focus groups, event organizers, you feel the pressure to go along with the flow and just build a formulaic consumer product.

I don't think art that doesn't sell is lesser than art that does sell. I know, tell that to an artist who wants to make a living... but I really think you have to measure a work along more than one axis. How good something sells is a different dimension than how good something is. If that wasn't true, Thriller would be the best music ever and the Toyota Corolla would be the best car in the world.

Re: Why do modern pop songs have so many credited writers?

#42

Post by coldtea »

manachar wrote: post #27
droptablemain wrote: post #15

Modern pop music is a more refined commercial industry than it was in the past. It's been sliding further and further away from art and toward the commercial. It is what it is.

"Art that doesn't sell is just a storage problem." Had an artist tell me this once and it stuck with me ever since. He was referring to paintings, but has generally held for every other artistic endeavor. Looking through history art has always been commercial - it's just the audience that changes. For music, musicians who got paid used to be focused on the tastes of just the wealthiest folks who liked to go and be se…

>Looking through history art has always been commercial - it's just the audience that changes.

Well, not exactly in the same way. Commercial is not about "catering to an audience", it's about catering to mass audiences, and the compromises that entails.

For example, an "artistic" indie group catering to just a tiny minority is not just "as commercial" as a pop production, unless we stretch the term beyond recognition).

There's a huge difference in attitude and approach. The artistic group would rather lose money than incorporat some elements that aren't in their vision. A pop artist on the other hand would more often than not just do whatever the producer or writing team wants to get on the fads of the day and sell more.

It's not just the audience that changes, but the methodology, the marketing involved, the perception of their work by the artist, and most importantly the lack of the kind of defiance that characterized artists who'd rather lose lots of money and stay poor than compromise on their vision (or who even made a point of not selling out on purpose).

Re: Why do modern pop songs have so many credited writers?

#43

Post by themadturk »

bodhiandphysics wrote: post #17

So there’s an interesting prehistory to all this. The us music industry began in the late 19th century… and this is before the record! music publishing and songwriting was literally publishing… of the sheet music. The standard form of this was as a piano score, and that’s the form that songwriters generally had copywrite on. Now if you were to perform this you would obviously need an orchestration, and this was subje…

Many Hollywood composers outsource orchestration as well, often due to time constraints. John Williams is perfectly capable of orchestrating his work, but often doesn't. I understand he leaves very detailed notes for those who do, however.

Re: Why do modern pop songs have so many credited writers?

#44

Post by bodhiandphysics »

brazzy wrote: post #39
bodhiandphysics wrote: post #17

So there’s an interesting prehistory to all this. The us music industry began in the late 19th century… and this is before the record! music publishing and songwriting was literally publishing… of the sheet music. The standard form of this was as a piano score, and that’s the form that songwriters generally had copywrite on. Now if you were to perform this you would obviously need an orchestration, and this was subje…

twitch Sorry, but since you used a phonetic misspelling twice, I suspect it's not a typo and you could benefit from being corrected. It's copy right . The right to make or distribute copies of a work. A copywriter is someone who writes texts for advertising or marketing.

you're right... its a condition... i have terrible spelling

Re: Why do modern pop songs have so many credited writers?

#45

Post by AlbertCory »

There's a cynical saying among traditional songwriters:

Change a word, get a third.

In other words, they give a song to some established star, who makes trivial changes and then claims partial songwriting credit.

Is that fair? I don't know. Publishing royalties are so massive that you have to expect people to try to get in on them. Robbie Robertson is notorious for claiming all the songwriting credits for The Band's songs. Was that fair? I don't know that, either.

Re: Why do modern pop songs have so many credited writers?

#46

Post by bodhiandphysics »

themadturk wrote: post #43
bodhiandphysics wrote: post #17

So there’s an interesting prehistory to all this. The us music industry began in the late 19th century… and this is before the record! music publishing and songwriting was literally publishing… of the sheet music. The standard form of this was as a piano score, and that’s the form that songwriters generally had copywrite on. Now if you were to perform this you would obviously need an orchestration, and this was subje…

Many Hollywood composers outsource orchestration as well, often due to time constraints. John Williams is perfectly capable of orchestrating his work, but often doesn't. I understand he leaves very detailed notes for those who do, however.

In John Williams' case it's particularly funny, since he got his start as an orchestrator! The notable exceptions to this rule on broadway are Kurt Weil and Leonard Bernstein.

Re: Why do modern pop songs have so many credited writers?

#47

Post by pram »

vouaobrasil wrote: post #38
bazoom42 wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When was pop music not commercial? Isn’t this basically the definition of pop music?

Yes, you are right. Though, I think the idea is that pop music has become more of an industry now than it was before, in the sense that every aspect of it is optimized and all those optimizations are pushed to the extreme over any artistic merit, far more than 30 years ago.

30 years ago we had fabricated boy bands like NSYNC.

Re: Why do modern pop songs have so many credited writers?

#49

Post by bsder »

pram wrote: post #47
vouaobrasil wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, you are right. Though, I think the idea is that pop music has become more of an industry now than it was before, in the sense that every aspect of it is optimized and all those optimizations are pushed to the extreme over any artistic merit, far more than 30 years ago.

30 years ago we had fabricated boy bands like NSYNC.

Boy bands have been around since the start of TV.

Frank Sinatra was probably close to the original "Boy Band(tm)". Singers were originally an appendage to the orchestra who was the big name. With TV, being young and attractive became much more important than the music and that equation flipped.

Sinatra, Elvis, The Beach Boys, The Beatles, etc. All of them relied on being "boy bands" to spread their music initially. Sure, many of them became more sophisticated with time, but much of their initial catalog was ... extremely derivative. There were a bunch of contemporary groups who sounded just like Elvis, The Beach Boys, The Beatles, etc.

Without being Boy Bands who could move records, they never would have lasted long enough to get better and become the legends we now know them to be.

Re: Why do modern pop songs have so many credited writers?

#50

Post by ciconia »

bodhiandphysics wrote: post #46
themadturk wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many Hollywood composers outsource orchestration as well, often due to time constraints. John Williams is perfectly capable of orchestrating his work, but often doesn't. I understand he leaves very detailed notes for those who do, however.

In John Williams' case it's particularly funny, since he got his start as an orchestrator! The notable exceptions to this rule on broadway are Kurt Weil and Leonard Bernstein.

As far as I recall Bernstein composed Candide on the piano and let someone else orchestrate it.
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