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California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

oag.ca.gov

341–350 of 396 posts

Re: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

#341

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US, thanks to being well, states that are united, has a history of devolved government. In a lot of places the power structures are much more unified, but here there's a tradition of independence within broad limits. There's a short history of California sales taxes here on page 3 (which is ~30 by PDF page count): https://www.ppic.org/wp-content/uploads/content/pubs/report/... But basically during the depression,…

Careful what you wish for—it causes strong race-to-the-bottom effects and tragedies of the commons / free-rider problems—if tax districts are small enough, I can go enjoy the parks in a neighboring tax district while having chosen to live where taxes are insufficient to pay for such nice parks. Extend for everything , not just parks, and you've got the situation in tons of major US cities, where low-tax suburban and…

interestingly, sales tax in San Francisco (8.63%) is noticeably lower than in the Easy Bay (10.25%).

replacing big ticket items such as a macbook pro 16” ends up being about $40 cheaper, especially for someone commuting into the city for work anyway.

Re: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

#342

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The night after my first haircut in the US I was like “oh shit” and I googled “do you tip for a haircut” and realized I fucked up. The results were anywhere from 10%-50% tip. The next haircut I got I asked “what is a good tip” and the hair cutter would not tell me. I guessed 20% and went about my day. Then someone told me “that was too low”. I ended up cutting my own hair, or waiting until I was in another sane count…

20% is fine for a haircut. It's perfectly acceptable.

20% was fine when haircuts were a lot cheaper.

My barber and most in the area have increased their prices significantly. 20% at $20 isn't bad. When my haircut is now pushing 35-40 range it becomes harder to stomach.

Re: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

#343

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that, but now everyone wants tips for things which never expected it before. Food cart? Tip. Fast food drive-thru? Tip. Heck, my barber now charges $25 for a haircut (which takes all of 15 minutes) and we're expected to tip for that too. Then there are tips that I apparently don't really know about but if I don't, I'm the jerk. I never knew I was supposed to tip the natural gas guy when he comes by to do som…

> Heck, my barber now charges $25 for a haircut (which takes all of 15 minutes) and we're expected to tip for that too. I think this comment perfectly encapsulates why tipping has exploded and why it's never going away. People say they hate tips, but they complain vehemently when the base price of those goods rises to a decent wage. In most urban areas I'd posit the reason for the explosion of tipping is because of t…

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Re: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

#344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Sir, the wine is clearly marked as 0.0000000472c per cubic mile. How did you not see this coming?"

That happened to me in Italy. I knew I was in trouble when the chef came out to shake my hand. I did not realize the steak was priced per ounce, was the biggest steak I’d even seen, ended up costing me ~$400.

> I knew I was in trouble when the chef came out to shake my hand.

That is hilariously brutal. Oh no!

Re: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

#345
post #131

I think a lot of comments here are missing the reason as to why these hidden fees have become so much more prevalent in the past 20 or so years. The short of it is that comparison pricing is now much easier to do because of the Internet, and many, if not a majority, of shoppers will just sort by price ascending and pick the first result (or, only pick from the first couple results). Thus, there is a huge incentive fo…

> This is also a case where consumers say they want one thing, but their behavior is a different matter. For example, pretty much everyone says they prefer the full price to be shown up front in search result pages. But, as someone who is privy to a ton of A/B testing in this area, the opposite nearly always results in higher conversion, where there is a lower up-front price and fees are only tacked on during checkou…

> because the fees are hidden and the total cost appears lower

Consumers still understand the total cost, albeit at the end. We aren't tricked into accepting it most of the times.

Take Airbnb for example. Consumers compare and find listings, but at checkout, the extra charges get added. They see what they will pay, but at this point they just "accept it", rather than starting over again.

Re: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

#346

I think a lot of comments here are missing the reason as to why these hidden fees have become so much more prevalent in the past 20 or so years. The short of it is that comparison pricing is now much easier to do because of the Internet, and many, if not a majority, of shoppers will just sort by price ascending and pick the first result (or, only pick from the first couple results). Thus, there is a huge incentive fo…

Airlines are an interesting an example because the FAA required them to advertise all-inclusive pricing a decade ago. The extras they charge for now (checked bags, bigger seats, nonstop flights) really are optional —- I routinely pack light and pass on any upgrades. People who need to check a bag can include that in their price comparison. For hotels, it’s fine to charge extra for access to the pool or whatever as lo…

I think the difference being, "the hidden" charges are usually not optional in other cases. Airbnb for example, hotel resort fees, ticket "pickup fees", etc.

Re: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

#347

This is welcome news. An egregious example of what they are (hopefully) aiming to stop: https://passingtime.substack.com/p/perfidious-pricing Also, a 2021 story from the Times about how drip pricing is getting out of control: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/02/opinion/consumers-drip-pr...

I have always been disgusted by the AirBnB practice where they charge YOU a service fee and take out a % of the nightly fee the owner charges. Like who are they working for? Me? Or the b&b owner?

Not to mention the cleaning fee that's only disclosed when you make it to the purchase page, with the additional "House Rules" that you are required to take out the trash, strip the beds, and run the dishwasher before you leave.

All the while, you don't get daily cleaning like you would in a hotel.

It's pretty bad, and I'm gradually moving back to hotels, which are a known quantity.

Re: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

#348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was an interesting article on United’s new family seating policy, allows families traveling with children under 12 to sit together automatically with no added fees by default. Sounded like a decent way of identifying when sitting together actually would be optional for most people. https://viewfromthewing.com/uniteds-new-family-seating-polic...

I’m fine with this solution, families can use a break in modern America. But if airlines had said from the beginning that bookings with a child under 12 are not eligible for basic economy, it’d hard to see what’s unfair about that.

The airlines aren’t doing this out of kindness, the Department of Transportation is basically telling them they have to. Officially they’re “encouraging” the airlines to seat families together at no charge, but that’s regulator speak for “do it voluntarily or else we’ll make you”. https://www.transportation.gov/individuals/aviation-consumer...

Re: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

#349
I wish this bill was "ban ALL FEES" period. Classifying something as "junk" or "hidden" sounds like a nightmare that plenty of businesses and industries will find way around. Get back to bottom line pricing, taxes included, and watch competition rise while prices fall

Re: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

#350

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the normal definition of fraud. It seems the difference is you think hidden fees are lying, whereas most people don’t think so as long as they are presented before final purchase agreement.

Yes, I think saying something is $199/night when the minimum you can pay for it is $250/night is lying. Can you think of another word for that? It’s an untrue statement about the price, that they know is untrue. I just can’t think of another word to describe that other than “a lie”. If the hidden fees were optional, I could see it being a closer call. If I can uncheck the cleaning fee and actually get $199/night, the…

According to your definition of lying/fraud, basically all of the following would count as fraud:

1. Pretty much every retail store in existence in the US, because sales taxes aren't calculated until checkout. The sign in the aisle says "3.99" but the minimum you can pay for it is 3.99 x .08 or whatever, so according to your definition that's lying.

2. Every online retail store that charges for shipping and handling, because those charges aren't calculated until checkout (usually because they are variable). Again, according to you, another instance of lying.

3. Even your cleaning fee example isn't as cut-and-dry as you make it out to be. Cleaning fees for vacation rentals are usually assessed only once per stay (i.e. for cleaning the room after checkout), so including the cleaning fee into the nightly rate isn't accurate, even if I enter my rental dates while searching. A place that charges $199/night but has a $100 cleaning fee may or may not be a better deal than a $250/night place with a $40 cleaning fee, depending on my length of stay. If I just lump that in with a nightly rate, and my dates are flexible, I lose information about which place may be the better deal.

4. I've seen customers get irate and demand something was "fraud" when a vacation rental had parking fees. The parking fees were clearly spelled out in the contract (but, again, only on checkout). But this truly is an optional fee - many customers would Uber or whatever to get to the rental without a car. What determined whether the customer thought it was "fraud" was their own personal expectations about what should be included, even if other customers didn't share those expectations.

Furthermore, many/most of these sites that only show details of fees on checkout still say "plus fees" or "plus S/H" on search result pages. Is it still fraud if they tell you there are fees upfront but don't actually tell you what those fees are until checkout?

In general, I just find it very distasteful when folks try to redefine words that have pretty straightforward meanings to meet their personal definition of the what they think the word should mean, especially for topics that have gray areas, and especially when there are other words that better encompass the idea that you're making a statement of opinion rather than fact. E.g. I think most people wouldn't mind you saying "Their marketing practices are deceptive", because most people would think there is some amount of opinion into what constitutes deception, but most people think of fraud as much more of a clear-and-dry instance of lying for financial gain.

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