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California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

oag.ca.gov

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Re: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

#261

Post by kneebonian »

weberer wrote: post #156
switz wrote: post #8

Taxes and fees should be mandated for all prices up front. This is how it works in most of the world, there's no good reason it shouldn't work that way here in the US. Someone will come along and point out an edge case, but for the vast majority of retail situations this is doable.

Or just abolish sales tax. If the states want the money, they can just raise state income tax, which they're already charging, by a few percent. As it is now, it just complicates things and disincentivizes consumers from making purchases, which slows down the local economy.

Income tax is generally state and federal, sales tax is usually municipal and county.

It's a lot harder for a city to collect income tax than sales tax.

Re: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

#262

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

ncallaway wrote: post #242
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think fraud is a good analogy - the whole point with fraud is that you are getting something different after you agreed to it, when it's too late to back out. Going back to the airline example, most people say they hate getting nickel and dimed on things like paying to pick a seat up front or paying even for the first carry-on, but they will still pick one flight over another if the base rate is $5 cheaper. A…

> I don't think fraud is a good analogy - the whole point with fraud is that you are getting something different after you agreed to it, when it's too late to back out. Nah, it’s fraud. It’s a minor, lightweight fraud, but it’s still fraud. These companies are just lying to customers to get what they want, that’s fraud. There’s a veneer of legality to it, because they tell you the price before the “contract” is legal…

You have a very odd definition of "fraud" in my opinion. But I'll just leave it at that, because this feels like the perfect example of the oft-quoted "99% of all Internet arguments are over semantics" line.

Re: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

#263

Post by kneebonian »

Jolter wrote: post #238
tptacek wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Income taxes deter saving and investment, but are easier to target. Sales taxes are hard to make progressive (they're usually regressive) and can be harder to enforce (if they're local). It depends on your goals. It sort of makes sense that we have both, at differing rates.

While I agree with you mostly, why wouldn’t you call sales tax progressive? The more you earn, the more you will spend, so the more you pay. The big issue I have with sales tax is that it is a much worse solution to the problem than a simple value-added tax (VAT). Most countries have figured out that VAT is more difficult to cheat.

Yes that is generally common sense reasoning but it is called regressive because then poor people spend a larger % of their income.

Honestly seems like some mental gymnastics to me to argue that regressive is about what % of income is spent on taxes rather than amount of taxes paid but that's the argument.

Re: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

#264

Post by KMag »

Jolter wrote: post #238
tptacek wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Income taxes deter saving and investment, but are easier to target. Sales taxes are hard to make progressive (they're usually regressive) and can be harder to enforce (if they're local). It depends on your goals. It sort of makes sense that we have both, at differing rates.

While I agree with you mostly, why wouldn’t you call sales tax progressive? The more you earn, the more you will spend, so the more you pay. The big issue I have with sales tax is that it is a much worse solution to the problem than a simple value-added tax (VAT). Most countries have figured out that VAT is more difficult to cheat.

Poor people tend to spend a higher percentage of their income, and invest a lower percentage. So, they end up paying a higher percentage of their incomes in sales tax, on average.

Re: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

#265

Post by [deleted] »

shagie wrote: post #70
grahar64 wrote: post #27

As a foreigner who lived in the USA for a few years, I always thought the US runs in hidden fees. From tipping, to taxes not in the sale price, to insurances not being able to give a price for a procedure, to hotel fees… I could never actually guess how much anything would cost. Either the wording of the law will have a ton of exclusions per industry.

> to taxes not in the sale price This gets complicated and there's good reason. The taxes depend on where you take possession of the goods. If you purchase an item and walk up to the checkout counter, you pay the taxes there. On the other hand, if you are buying lumber in Kansas City, KS to be delivered in Kanas City, MO - you pay the MO taxes (4.225%) rather than the KS taxes (6.5%). So, putting the taxes on the lum…

[deleted]

Re: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

#266

Post by HDThoreaun »

jawns wrote: post #32

"Californians are fed up with being bombarded by junk fees that, more and more, are making it unaffordable to attend a concert, go to a sporting event, take a vacation, or stay at a hotel." Oh, believe me, state Senator Nancy Skinner, requiring businesses to disclose these fees up front is not going to make these purchases any more affordable. Companies will either maintain the fees but comply with the disclosure req…

increasing competition lowers prices.

Re: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

#267

Post by lotsofpulp »

astura wrote: post #237
lotsofpulp wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point is, presumably, the websites of major hotel brands work the same for everyone. I would be interested in seeing an example of a “hidden” fee at a hotel. Same with airline prices. Google flight search has always shown me the total price, as have the airline websites themselves.

>I would be interested in seeing an example of a “hidden” fee at a hotel. Every single hotel room on the Vegas strip has a resort fee, for example. Try it yourself - when searching websites will list, say $50/night but when you actually go book it you'll see an additional significant "resort fee" on top of that. It makes it hard to compare prices - you will have to go to the checkout page to see what you'd actually p…

I would not call that hidden, but rather obfuscated prices. Although, legislation to make pricing clearer and easier to compare is always welcome.

Re: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

#268

Post by [deleted] »

kneebonian wrote: post #263
Jolter wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I agree with you mostly, why wouldn’t you call sales tax progressive? The more you earn, the more you will spend, so the more you pay. The big issue I have with sales tax is that it is a much worse solution to the problem than a simple value-added tax (VAT). Most countries have figured out that VAT is more difficult to cheat.

Yes that is generally common sense reasoning but it is called regressive because then poor people spend a larger % of their income. Honestly seems like some mental gymnastics to me to argue that regressive is about what % of income is spent on taxes rather than amount of taxes paid but that's the argument.

[deleted]

Re: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

#269

Post by rootusrootus »

denton-scratch wrote: post #174
rootusrootus wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not only that, but now everyone wants tips for things which never expected it before. Food cart? Tip. Fast food drive-thru? Tip. Heck, my barber now charges $25 for a haircut (which takes all of 15 minutes) and we're expected to tip for that too. Then there are tips that I apparently don't really know about but if I don't, I'm the jerk. I never knew I was supposed to tip the natural gas guy when he comes by to do som…

> Heck, my barber now charges $25 for a haircut (which takes all of 15 minutes) and we're expected to tip for that too. It's been customary to tip barbers since forever, hasn't it? When I was just 8, my father gave me money to tip the barber. I think the principle is, you tip so that the server remembers you. With haircuts, that can make a difference. My hair is now so thin and wispy that no barber can make it look O…

Yeah I guess I should be more specific. It's not really a barber, I think it's more 'hair stylist' I guess? Just a place that does all kinds of haircuts. No barber pole on the front or anything like that. Rarely get the same stylist twice, and they just pull up my cutting preferences from their computer when I check in.

> My hair is now so thin and wispy that no barber can make it look OK. I cut it very short myself, with electric clippers. I haven't been to a barbers in 8 years.

Ha! I'm getting there fast. I can still get it cut so it doesn't look terrible, but it quickly grows out and starts to look patchy, and worse, like I'm trying to have some kind of hangover. I'm this ---><--- close to just taking the clippers to it myself and calling it good.

Re: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

#270

Post by russdill »

denton-scratch wrote: post #101

> other than taxes and fees imposed by a government. Why that exclusion? Why not require the price on the label to be the price you pay?

This makes sense for location specific services. If you are trying to compare two hotel rooms, by so means, they should be forced to include all the taxes they require since that doesn't involve your location and is important when comparing prices.

But should not be a requirement for products where I would need to pay my local tax as that would require me to enter my location and would not provide any interesting extra information between products.

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