Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

oag.ca.gov

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

201–210 of 396 posts

Re: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

#201

Post by yamtaddle »

wpietri wrote: post #185
yamtaddle wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It represents an actual cost for an actual activity. It really doesn't. It's been a stealth way to increase your rates for a long time now. > I think AirBnb should show initial totals with it included, so you're never surprised by it. They do, but it makes comparing rentals (both within AirBnB and across services) a pain in the ass, because it's not factored into the initial rate-per-night that you see and that the…

> > It represents an actual cost for an actual activity. > It really doesn't. It's been a stealth way to increase your rates for a long time now. Two things can be true at once. Cleaning is an actual activity they actually have to do after I leave. There are actual costs. E.g., they might use a service that specializes in vacation rental cleaning: https://cleaningglow.com/san-francisco-services/vacation-ren... Do som…

It's so common on US airbnb that I expect it's practically necessary to shift some margin to the "cleaning fee" to stay competitive (you'll get out-"bid" by others who have).

I objected to "actual cost", not "actual activity". Yes, they clean (usually...). No, it doesn't cost anywhere near what they're charging, unless you left the place such a wreck that you're getting a 1-star guest rating.

Re: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

#202

Post by 8note »

acdha wrote: post #177
IncRnd wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is also a case where consumers say they want one thing, but their behavior is a different matter. For example, pretty much everyone says they prefer the full price to be shown up front in search result pages. But, as someone who is privy to a ton of A/B testing in this area, the opposite nearly always results in higher conversion, where there is a lower up-front price and fees are only tacked on during checkou…

I wouldn’t read the claim as “consumers secretly do like hidden fees” but rather “people say they don’t like them but don’t actually care enough to stop giving money to companies which use them”. It’s like how people might say they want to eat better food if you ask them directly but when you record what they actually eat it ends up looking quite different. On HN you’ll see a similar dynamic with privacy, business et…

Yeah, it's that people can be successfully tricked.

People don't like being stolen from, but if you can get away with it, it must be a good thing

Re: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

#203

Post by runarberg »

manquer wrote: post #77
zamadatix wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How often is sales tax changing that it becomes infeasible to update the shelf price tags? The grocery stores seem to handle it just fine changing the "buy one get one" type tags every month!

A lot harder to do online without knowing the zip code . People are sometimes vary of sharing that just to see full price

Two solutions:

a) Universal sales tax within the state. Allow local governments some other varying taxes (such as income or paycheck tax)

b) Put small bracket under the price “(includes 9.5% sales tax for zip 98210 change location)”

Re: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

#204

Post by lotsofpulp »

epicureanideal wrote: post #94
lotsofpulp wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of retail businesses have less than 5% profit margin. Even insurance companies, including health insurance, have less than 5% profit margins.

Well I do wonder about the exec compensation at insurance companies though. 5% profit but mega million compensation packages…

Why would insurance company executives have any more (or less) negotiating power than any other similar sized business?

Cursory look at insurance company executive pay does not show any anomalies.

Re: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

#205

Post by denton-scratch »

Alupis wrote: post #184
forrestthewoods wrote: post #10

I wish they would treat sales tax as a hidden fee. Just show the actual damn price up front plzkthx.

Sales Tax probably should be done-away with. In California, you are taxed when you earn a dollar, and taxed when you spend that same dollar. If you look at your bank account and it's balance is $100, you do not actually have $100 in purchasing power, but rather 7-12% less, because sales tax will be computed when you spend this money. Why not just charge the appropriate amount for Income Tax and be done with it...

Sales taxes penalize poorer people, who spend a greater proportion of their income. They are regressive and unfair.

In the UK we have two different kinds of income tax; one is called National Insurance, but it's not insurance at all. It's there so that the government can brag about reducing income tax.

When the UK joined the EU, we had to introduce sales tax (VAT). Part of the VAT receipts were to fund the EU. Note that VAT is much higher than US sales taxes (20%). Now we're out: whoopee! No more VAT! Oh, hang on...

Re: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

#206

Post by themitigating »

megaman821 wrote: post #78
themitigating wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know this is sarcastic and if you didn't post it first I would have. The inconsistencies some people have when complaining about regulation, California, and Democrats is just irritating

Regulation isn't a singular thing. People want more good regulations and less bad regulations. Even when good regulations exist, people want competent enforcement of the regulations. California passes a lot regulations, so there is a lot of red meat for either side of the regulations good/bad arguments.

Republicans say they don't want more legislation, not "bad" legislation.

Also good and bad are subjective

Re: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

#207

Post by twawaaay »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #82

I think a lot of comments here are missing the reason as to why these hidden fees have become so much more prevalent in the past 20 or so years. The short of it is that comparison pricing is now much easier to do because of the Internet, and many, if not a majority, of shoppers will just sort by price ascending and pick the first result (or, only pick from the first couple results). Thus, there is a huge incentive fo…

> this ease of price comparison has resulted in unbundling of services in a number of industries - e.g. airlines where the base price is akin to "we let you hang on to the wing", and everything else is an upcharge.

The issue isn't that everything is an upcharge.

I have no problem with having options. I actually like being able to pay less when I don't need the added options.

With airlines, (at least here in EU) you pretty much know what the base price buys you and that everything is an option on top of it. And as long as the options are reasonable (like paying for additional luggage) and the UI isn't trying to mislead you to buying something you don't intend, I think this is very defensible from the standpoint of making product better and more affordable to people (who don't necessarily need additional luggage, for example).

The issue is in many cases there is not even a possibility to buy the product/service for the advertised price and they will make difficult for you to find out what you are going to pay until it is too late or you have invested time/effort. It is a restaurant where the charges are added to your bill (the tip no longer being voluntary) or a shop where they try to recoup some of their losses with an exaggerated shipment fees. Or when you suddenly find out a critical part of your product is sold separately. Or you buy a printer and then they try to scam you by selling the ink/toner for more than the price of the printer. Or the website UI makes every effort to hide from you the fact you are buying something you don't need.

Re: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

#208

Post by nottorp »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #82

I think a lot of comments here are missing the reason as to why these hidden fees have become so much more prevalent in the past 20 or so years. The short of it is that comparison pricing is now much easier to do because of the Internet, and many, if not a majority, of shoppers will just sort by price ascending and pick the first result (or, only pick from the first couple results). Thus, there is a huge incentive fo…

> But, as someone who is privy to a ton of A/B testing in this area, the opposite nearly always results in higher conversion, where there is a lower up-front price and fees are only tacked on during checkout.

This just shows how much of a bubble sales people are in. Just because your sales data shows a better profit it doesn't mean it's not fraudulent.

Re: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

#209

Post by meltedcapacitor »

yamtaddle wrote: post #183
spiffytech wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't need to be fraud. A common trick in designing restaurant menus is to make it harder to scan the price list, because people buy the food they prefer when price is one of many considerations rather than prominently highlighted. > Centred Justification > When prices are printed in neat, right-justified columns, everyone glances down the line to compare prices. Menu consultants recommend a centred justificatio…

What's weird, at least in the US, is that the higher-end the joint, the easier it is to shop by price, generally. Tax-inclusive, whole-dollar-value (no "$7.99" crap, it's just "8"), all-prices-aligned menus are more common as one heads up-scale.

Makes sense: at the high end of the market, patrons need to be able to identify and get the most expensive option to impress their date/mates, and understandably restaurants want to be helpful.

(See "Veblen goods".)

Re: California AG and state senators introduce bill to ban hidden fees

#210

Post by lotsofpulp »

yamtaddle wrote: post #124
lotsofpulp wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of retail businesses have less than 5% profit margin. Even insurance companies, including health insurance, have less than 5% profit margins.

Nb. health insurance profit margins are now capped, in the US.

At 15% to 20%. So smaller profit margins indicate downward pressure on pricing from competitors.
Post reply on HN