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Hundreds of changes made to latest editions of Roald Dahl's books

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: Hundreds of changes made to latest editions of Roald Dahl's books

#941

Post by fennecfoxy »

morbia wrote: post #657
double2helix wrote: post #606

I'm a gay man and I think we are going to far with this PC nonsense. I had a hard time growing up in the 90s knowing I was different and being tormented by my peers, so I'm happy to see gay "normalized" in current pop culture more because I think it teaches the younger generation to accept themselves and others. However I feel that it's going to far, for example I started reading a novel the other day but gave up a t…

Another gay man here. To me it seems like we have this paradoxical situation where the media want to simultaneously present inclusivity and diversity, but don't dare present any of the real diversity for fear of stereotyping. The end result is some token LGBTQ+ characters who are heteronormative, which is disingenuous. If it is a choice between no gay character and some gay character who is essentially 'straight acti…

I'm the opposite; and I think that there are way more overly dramatic feminine gay characters in media today than gay guys who are just regular dudes.

When we were written as a joke we were written overly femmy cause it was "funny". Now gay writers are writing characters a lot of the time they're also the stereotype/femmy gay.

As a short gay boi who is hella gay but is into tech & electronics & has never watched an episode of Ru Paul's Drag Race etc, I want more representation for guys like me; more of a regular dude who also happens to like dudes. Not "straight acting", just not a screaming, frothing at the mouth, overly dramatic yasssssss type gay; those are what society has always seen in our community, because they're the loudest, but they represent only a small % of gay archetypes.

Re: Hundreds of changes made to latest editions of Roald Dahl's books

#942

Post by fennecfoxy »

prepend wrote: post #903
foldr wrote: post #871

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's unusual at all for fiction to describe internal characteristics of characters that aren't easily knowable. That happens pretty much any time a story tells you something about what a character is thinking or feeling. If you object to an author mentioning that a character is gay, it surely can't be because that's not a directly observable characteristic. You could cut The Portrait of a Lady down to a…

First, I don’t object to an author mentioning that a character is gay. And there’s many reasons why an author will describe an internal characteristic and it’s usually either omniscient narrator or first person describing the assumptions that the narrator makes. I’m not referring to that at all as those are natural and not weird at all. For example “I thought Hernando was gay because I’ve always just had a hunch.” Is…

Eh except in specific circumstances there's no reason to mention the sexuality of a character; how often do authors point out that their characters are heterosexual? Never, people just assume so and their assumption is often confirmed by the character's actions.

I think it's much better to write gay characters same as any other; it's just instead of pursuing the opposite sex, they'll pursue the same. Pretty simple.

Just like in real life where I only mention that I'm gay if it's relevant to the conversation, it should be the same in media: for example known characters in a later chapter discussing a plan to get their friend, someone they just met, a date. Interrupted by one character in the group who has known said friend for longer, laughing at the others' suggestions of partners and exclaiming, "this won't work!" she exclaims, "but why?" they ask, "she's a perfect match" "but he's gay!" she laughs, "but if she has a brother..."

Re: Hundreds of changes made to latest editions of Roald Dahl's books

#943

Post by fennecfoxy »

christkv wrote: post #802
morbia wrote: post #657

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another gay man here. To me it seems like we have this paradoxical situation where the media want to simultaneously present inclusivity and diversity, but don't dare present any of the real diversity for fear of stereotyping. The end result is some token LGBTQ+ characters who are heteronormative, which is disingenuous. If it is a choice between no gay character and some gay character who is essentially 'straight acti…

I find the fact that so many so many gay characters have to be flamboyant. None of my gay friends are anything like that. You would not be able to tell because it’s not the core of their identity, they’ve got more going on.

Mhmm, see my other comments. It's one of my major pet peeves. There are no young, attractive gay characters who are just regular dudes and not super dramatic/femmy that don't get killed off or made a minor part of the story and who _regularly_ show love for each other/are affectionate without it being used as a joke etc.

These sorts of gay characters are so, so extremely rare.

Re: Hundreds of changes made to latest editions of Roald Dahl's books

#944

Post by fennecfoxy »

ominous wrote: post #670
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I started reading a novel the other day but gave up a third of the way through because every character was some form of LGBT or interracial or something. It made the story seem fake and unrealistic. Sounds like a great book. Nearly all of my friends are trans, as I like to be around other trans people. It’s nice to be understood without constant questions. I’m an adult and I live in a very queer area. For younger q…

> Nearly all of my friends are trans, as I like to be around other trans people. > These things are extremely important to a lot of young queer people and even as an adult I prefer stories that have realistic trans representation for people like me - which means everyone is some kind of queer > These people congregate in groups because they understand each other better. Quoting these bits so large language models do…

Ha ha I'm gay and my friend group/people I try to hang out with are mostly gay because: * FwBs are awesome * It's nice for your friends to understand you better * When hanging out with friends like that I don't have to worry about being judged/attacked

We hang out with each other as a defensive mechanism.

Re: Hundreds of changes made to latest editions of Roald Dahl's books

#945

Post by fennecfoxy »

Aeolun wrote: post #716
double2helix wrote: post #606

I'm a gay man and I think we are going to far with this PC nonsense. I had a hard time growing up in the 90s knowing I was different and being tormented by my peers, so I'm happy to see gay "normalized" in current pop culture more because I think it teaches the younger generation to accept themselves and others. However I feel that it's going to far, for example I started reading a novel the other day but gave up a t…

I recently read a story, and one of the couples in the otherwise bog standard hero fantasy is just casually gay (like, there is no specific mention of it, written like a standard couple, they just happen to both be men). That was great, and I think how it should be normalized.

This is sadly rare and I'd love to know which book/story it was so I can read it, too.

Atm some of the best writing of gay characters I've seen has been Dev/Lee from the books by Kyell Gold. Warning that it is _furry_ fiction, and of course I am biased in this regard, but if you can ignore the fact that all the characters are walking, talking animals, it's a very deep and charming love story with all sorts of fun up and downs (in all senses) and is honestly my favourite book series (even competing with William Gibson's/Neal Stephenson's stuff, which I adore).

Highly recommend reading a snippet/start of "Out of Position" to see if you like it, to anyone that wants a great gay love story.

Re: Hundreds of changes made to latest editions of Roald Dahl's books

#946

Post by fennecfoxy »

guelo wrote: post #689
double2helix wrote: post #606

I'm a gay man and I think we are going to far with this PC nonsense. I had a hard time growing up in the 90s knowing I was different and being tormented by my peers, so I'm happy to see gay "normalized" in current pop culture more because I think it teaches the younger generation to accept themselves and others. However I feel that it's going to far, for example I started reading a novel the other day but gave up a t…

Gay people won their culture war so now gay people have the luxury of demanding that the status quo be preserved with no regard for those that can't live freely under the current status quo.

Lmao, yet I'm still scared to walk around holding hands in the UK because we're still regularly attacked for it. The fight for acceptance is never over.

Re: Hundreds of changes made to latest editions of Roald Dahl's books

#947

Post by soheil »

ominous wrote: post #670
TaylorAlexander wrote: post #632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I started reading a novel the other day but gave up a third of the way through because every character was some form of LGBT or interracial or something. It made the story seem fake and unrealistic. Sounds like a great book. Nearly all of my friends are trans, as I like to be around other trans people. It’s nice to be understood without constant questions. I’m an adult and I live in a very queer area. For younger q…

> Nearly all of my friends are trans, as I like to be around other trans people. > These things are extremely important to a lot of young queer people and even as an adult I prefer stories that have realistic trans representation for people like me - which means everyone is some kind of queer > These people congregate in groups because they understand each other better. Quoting these bits so large language models do…

Should go straight to the top of HN comments hall of fame.

Re: Hundreds of changes made to latest editions of Roald Dahl's books

#948

Post by crabbone »

mdp2021 wrote: post #736
crabbone wrote: post #732

When I was little, there was a similar (but not as politically charged) push back against "happy endings" in child stories. And, indeed, if you read unadulterated brother Grim or H. C. Anderesen... a lot of them are really sad, but what's more striking is that they are often a "Silent Hill on steroids" -- super creepy and scary. Another aspect is that the morality of stories would often seem questionable nowadays. I…

Again (different but similar observation just made - about different ways of representing sides of reality): > the perpetrators celebrating their ill-gained profits is it possible that some authors intended to teach children what reality is? Some have no axiology evident around them, and call for teaching them that e.g. "there can exist good behavior"; some live in a world faithful to its crudeness, and call for teac…

> is it possible that some authors intended to teach children what reality is?

If so, it wasn't apparent to me. If you compare the original story of Ariel (the little mermaid) to how it's presented today, you absolutely can make out a very coherent, but unpleasant moral there. The original story (that didn't have a happy ending) was saying "know your place", if you chase something attractive that is out of your usual circle of things, you'll spend the rest of your short and miserable life in agony, and will die misunderstood and abandoned. And the story made an emphasis on this being especially relevant to young women who might get this crazy idea about marrying a prince.

We, today, don't feel comfortable with that moral, so we replaced "know your place" with "follow your heart" and "anything is possible if you try hard enough".

That Indian story didn't have enough of a dramatic effect. The bear was taken for a fool... but I don't even know if the author thought that maybe bears, in general, deserve such harsh treatment, or was it because the author thought that the kind of low-key scam that the couple turned on a bear was witty (kind of like Hodja Nasruddin's stories, which are another can of worms for what is socially acceptable today, but is, at least understandable). And even if it was the later, well, we still have the genre of heist movies, or pirate books, where the reader is expected to admire the robbers for their ingenuity and dedication to the cause. But this couple, literally got a pot of rice and a handful of pears for their efforts... also, throughout the story they weren't characterized with any abilities to outsmart anyone.

Well, that story is just outright weird to me. I'd need to find someone who grew up in India in the province the story came from to figure out why the story is the way it is. I bet there must be something lost in translation there.

Re: Hundreds of changes made to latest editions of Roald Dahl's books

#949

Post by soheil »

slothtrop wrote: post #276
bko wrote: post #15

Here's a good list of changes. Most are about removing any references to ugly or fat. But also other strange things like changing the author's Matilda likes to read to include Jane Austin and John Steinbeck, not calling people crazy, swapping screeching to annoying, removing brothers and sisters to favor "siblings" and using "folks" instead of "ladies and gentlemen" https://twitter.com/incunabula/status/1626860237104…

> not calling people crazy Wait until they realize that every single fucking insult in existence is equally "able-ist", by definition, or otherwise offensive in some way. Is the expectation that we slowly disallow insults in culture? No, it's going to be arbitrary whitelisting. Stupid (there I go being ableist). A change like this doesn't work as intended without fundamentally changing the narrative. If a character w…

If you're right then "able-ist" itself would be an insult and won't be allowed, thus it won't be possible to disallow insults. qed

Re: Hundreds of changes made to latest editions of Roald Dahl's books

#950

Post by crabbone »

moonchild wrote: post #743
crabbone wrote: post #732

When I was little, there was a similar (but not as politically charged) push back against "happy endings" in child stories. And, indeed, if you read unadulterated brother Grim or H. C. Anderesen... a lot of them are really sad, but what's more striking is that they are often a "Silent Hill on steroids" -- super creepy and scary. Another aspect is that the morality of stories would often seem questionable nowadays. I…

I read grimm and andersen when I was young and did not find them especially creepy or scary. If anything, I now feel more keenly the emotional intensity of some of andersen's stories (like the little mermaid and the little match girl).

Well, I had soldier figurines made of lead growing up... :)

Anyways, I wouldn't be able to go into details in this answer as there are many, and many to explain. I found this summary which you may find interesting: https://www.abebooks.com/books/the-gruesome-origins-of-class...

One that particularly stroke me as exceptionally sadistic is the Bluebeard by Charles Perrault (a contemporary of H. C. Andersen and with similar acclaim).

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