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The cameras worked fine, but their maker said they had reached their end of life

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Re: The cameras worked fine, but their maker said they had reached their end of life

#31
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To put bluntly, anybody who buys hardware that is inexorably linked to some cloud-crap should be ashamed of themselves and deserve the loss of money as a learning experience. This isn't "blunt", this is just cruel. Nobody "deserves" to be the victim of false advertising or broken guarantees, particularly when they can reasonably lack the necessary contextual knowledge to analyze them beyond face value. Most people…

For a while I ran DDWRT on my routers, and spent hours learning about FreeNAS and ZFS. And I ran out of patience for it after a few years. I had more important things to do, and people to spend time with. My routers got replaced with Eeros and my NAS got replaced with a Synology. And while I don’t love that the former got bought by Amazon, both are pain free, and I spend a lot less time on them.

Yup. Even as a power user there's only so much time in the day. I ran a UniFi network locally for a while, because I was generally frustrated with the state of things. I still have the USG at the top of my network but everything south of it has been replaced with Eeros for Wi-Fi, and they just work(tm). I don't have time to fight with that stuff. I have a life.

I still run a FreeNAS box (well, TrueNAS), because I have work-related needs that Synology can't really handle, but that's a conscious choice and I have the skills necessary both to do it and to know that I need to. Most people do not. And that's okay. They have skills I do not have. Modern society functions on division of labor.

Re: The cameras worked fine, but their maker said they had reached their end of life

#32
post #3

This problem will only be solved by legislation. If countries seek to reduce e-waste they need to force electronics makers to ensure a minimum length of support on the same conditions as existed on the date of sale - say 10 years.

More government regulations?

[deleted]

Re: The cameras worked fine, but their maker said they had reached their end of life

#33
post #3

This problem will only be solved by legislation. If countries seek to reduce e-waste they need to force electronics makers to ensure a minimum length of support on the same conditions as existed on the date of sale - say 10 years.

The FCC could have a rule when you are releasing "Cloud Connected" hardware that would specify that you must provide an "EOL plan" for when you no longer wish to support the hardware. A good example would be Sonos, they would be within their right to end official support for a speaker, but they must provide some EOL support that will let these devices function in perpetuity (or at least until the hardware breaks down).

Re: The cameras worked fine, but their maker said they had reached their end of life

#34
post #6

Idea: Prosecute such companies for obtaining money under false pretenses. If you only get the thingie which you "bought" for a limited time - that is clearly a rental, not a sale.

It’s tough because what if the company doesn’t want to maintain the software? Are they obligated to keep the software up to date despite the one-time-sale? It’s a similar reason why much of the software moved to a subscription model, the recurring costs. Alternatively, there should be some group of smart individuals who come up with some protocol for various devices where, if a manufacturer decides to EoL the sale (s…

> Are they obligated to keep the software up to date despite the one-time-sale?

No. But they also should have no right to stop others from supporting the software: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34858209.

Re: The cameras worked fine, but their maker said they had reached their end of life

#35
post #6

Idea: Prosecute such companies for obtaining money under false pretenses. If you only get the thingie which you "bought" for a limited time - that is clearly a rental, not a sale.

It’s tough because what if the company doesn’t want to maintain the software? Are they obligated to keep the software up to date despite the one-time-sale? It’s a similar reason why much of the software moved to a subscription model, the recurring costs. Alternatively, there should be some group of smart individuals who come up with some protocol for various devices where, if a manufacturer decides to EoL the sale (s…

No, they don't need to keep the software up to date, they just have to ensure that the device continues working. Almost everything that uses electricity has a bit of software. Most devices don't need any updates. At the very least they need to enable somebody else to keep the devices running, for example by open sourcing the infra needed to do so.

Re: The cameras worked fine, but their maker said they had reached their end of life

#36
> internet-connected security cameras

These stopping to work is actually one of the best outcomes you can have

As opposed to e.g. internet-connected security cameras being hacked so that anyone can watch your home or footage from internet-connected security cameras being shared by the service provider with just about anyone or footage from internet-connected security cameras being completely useless because of the cheap hardware used for them, creating a feeling of surveillance without any of the benefits

Re: The cameras worked fine, but their maker said they had reached their end of life

#37
post #4
post #3

This problem will only be solved by legislation. If countries seek to reduce e-waste they need to force electronics makers to ensure a minimum length of support on the same conditions as existed on the date of sale - say 10 years.

Or vote with our dollars and reject "cloud" connected devices

Shifting responsibility to consumers has only ever worked to further enrich corporations.

Re: The cameras worked fine, but their maker said they had reached their end of life

#38
When companies advertise free for life, take it with a grain of salt. If they can't force people into a paid subscription, then they'll simply stop making the device work.

Remember, if Google can cut off support, what makes you think others wouldn't? Remember Stadia?

Customers should agree to nothing less other than getting refunded for their camera setup.

Re: The cameras worked fine, but their maker said they had reached their end of life

#39
A lot of people advocate for traditional cameras gaining some sort of smart interface to facilitate sharing or some other such features.

What they don't understand is that traditional cameras work extremely well with their dedicated but seemingly outdated interfaces, and moreover, they prevent things like this from happening. Replaceable batteries, replaceable storage, and "primitive" but exceptionally functional firmware makes it so that you can still pick up an 8-year old camera like the Nikon D7200 and produce shots that have the same quality as today's cameras without worrying about it not being supported (because it's essentially a complete product).

Re: The cameras worked fine, but their maker said they had reached their end of life

#40
post #12

To put bluntly, anybody who buys hardware that is inexorably linked to some cloud-crap should be ashamed of themselves and deserve the loss of money as a learning experience. I *only* buy hardware that can be controlled and/or managed locally. Sure, it means some 'cool' gadgets aren't available in my world. But it does mean that what I buy will be supported and will just work. If that means you buy PoE cameras and ge…

> To put bluntly, anybody who buys hardware that is inexorably linked to some cloud-crap should be ashamed of themselves and deserve the loss of money as a learning experience. This isn't "blunt", this is just cruel. Nobody "deserves" to be the victim of false advertising or broken guarantees, particularly when they can reasonably lack the necessary contextual knowledge to analyze them beyond face value. Most people…

> Nobody "deserves" to be the victim of false advertising or broken guarantees, particularly when they can reasonably lack the necessary contextual knowledge to analyze them beyond face value. Most people do not have the time or the aptitude (which is developed through more time) to become a system administrator of nontrivial local computing resources, but still derive significant value from being able to things like remotely viewable cameras.

You're right - that the government *should* do their thing and stomp down on companies with death-penalty-level fines and jail for the C levels and BoD. But lets be 100% real. Only 1 singular bank executive went to jail during the 2008 banking fraud crisis, and that was in Iceland.

The governments will not act in our best interests. That's transparently evident that we're in it on our selves and each other. I wish it weren't the case, but wishing something so does not make it so.

> The lady mentioned in the article, the one who owns a pet-boarding kennel a few minutes down the road from her house, has her life materially bettered by being able to access cameras remotely, and her life is not materially bettered by becoming a sysadmin to get that except for the fact that she is downstream of bad actors.

No doubt. But I'm surprised that there hasn't been a company who sells a on-prem video solution. Oh wait, there is. A cursory search showed me this https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08329JN9B for $560 with HDD. The cloud here is an optional thing.

This user decided to go with cloud-only crap for the convenience. And it's more convenient for the company to renegotiate the "deal". You pay peanuts, you get monkeys.

> The solution to this is not "well, everyone should be a sysadmin". The solution is "make the consequences of being a bad actor so petrifying that companies avoid doing so."

Or you realize that our country is very much "Caveat Emptor", and defend yourself appropriately, knowing legal remedies are few and far between. And if they ever do get a legal remedy, I'm sure they'll get a $10 voucher to buy more of the Cloud-crap.

Hardware that isn't tied at the hip to someone else's computer is already available. It's just not as cheap.

> Candidly, I echoed a lot of the sentiments of your post when I was younger, more self-absorbed, and more confident of my ability to attain sufficient expertise in all walks of life to never need help. My attitudes changed as I grew older and it became clearer that I was just as fallible as the next person, just on different axes. I hope you get the chance to attain perspective, too.

What is this self-help garbage doing in the middle of criticizing cloud-locked hardware being at the behest of a company? You do know that there are plenty of options that aren't infected with cloud-crap that are also outside of "build NVR in your basement".

If I see "Smart", "IoT" (and not a open protocol), or similar verbiage, I don't buy it. It also means I don't have to worry about data exfiltration like this: https://www.reddit.com/r/ABoringDystopia/comments/y3irol/rem...

> We are, as it happens, all in it together, and the attitude your post expresses is counterproductive.

We are absolutely not "in it together". You're on HN - you see the inexorable tread towards more profit at all costs for companies. If that means squeezing customers more, so be it. But they are not our friends, nor do they see themselves as us.

The US government is effectively captured at this point. Any remedies that happen here will be long after the damage was done.

Basically what I'm trying to get at is that we need to be vigilant and not buy into these "easy cloud ecosystems". At best, they are long-term contract-mutable rentals, and should be recognized as such. To that end, I'll pay more to stay away from those devices. That's about as much as we can do.

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