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Hundreds of changes made to latest editions of Roald Dahl's books

telegraph.co.uk

721–730 of 992 posts

Re: Hundreds of changes made to latest editions of Roald Dahl's books

#721

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a chasm between a desire to be around people that understand you, and the fear and ostracism of people who are different. I have spent my entire life around cisgender people. I am quite aware of what it is like. Once I began to transition, I found that those people did not well understand what I was going through, and I found a home and understanding in people more like me. To finally have space from a world…

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There is an important piece missing from your analysis that has led you astray.

There is this concept of the oppressor and the oppressed. In a patriarchy men as a whole oppress women. Individual men should not be judged by this but women will tend to stick together to avoid the high probability that men will mistreat them.

In a white supremacist society white people as a whole oppress people of color. Again people of color will want to stick together to find a break from the constant mistreatment by the white oppressor.

But there is a difference between white people wanting to stick together and people of color wanting to stick together in a white supremacist society. In this case the white people stick together to maintain their oppression and exclusion, and the people of color stick together to find freedom and respite from their mistreatment.

One of these is good and okay, and one of these is meant to perpetuate oppression. The oppressed wanting space from the oppressor is okay. The oppressor wanting to exclude the oppressed is not okay.

Because of this you cannot simply reverse the roles and say “see replace cis people with women/blacks and it sounds terrible”. Because what you have done is replace the dominant class with the oppressed class. You’ve changed the whole meaning of the thing.

In a cis heteronormative society the status quo is maintained by cis people constantly reinforcing gender and sexual norms. There is a long list of behaviors we are all taught as children that reinforce this, and we repeat those behaviors as adults to keep the system going. We do this unconsciously.

Trans people find that exhausting to be around. We have been around that our entire lives and many people we know have died trying to fight it. Finally we found the courage to push back and be ourselves.

We find it much less exhausting to be around people who have at least accepted our ways. And we find it positively rewarding to be around people that understand all the difficulties we are going through.

These are all things that cis people aren’t really going to understand.

Look - Imagine you’re a struggling writer. Your partner is a successful engineer. They don’t really understand what it’s like to be a struggling writer so when you talk to them about it their advice isn’t very good. You don’t feel any sense of relief from talking to them. Finally you end up at a bar and you bump in to another struggling writer who has recently regained some direction. You swap stories and feel positively encouraged!

If they told you about a writers group that would help, wouldn’t you want to join it? That’s not excluding others, that’s finding community! Everyone needs that.

Re: Hundreds of changes made to latest editions of Roald Dahl's books

#722

I'm a gay man and I think we are going to far with this PC nonsense. I had a hard time growing up in the 90s knowing I was different and being tormented by my peers, so I'm happy to see gay "normalized" in current pop culture more because I think it teaches the younger generation to accept themselves and others. However I feel that it's going to far, for example I started reading a novel the other day but gave up a t…

> I started reading a novel the other day but gave up a third of the way through because every character was some form of LGBT or interracial or something. It made the story seem fake and unrealistic. Sounds like a great book. Nearly all of my friends are trans, as I like to be around other trans people. It’s nice to be understood without constant questions. I’m an adult and I live in a very queer area. For younger q…

> it strikes me as totally realistic to have a book with primarily or only queer characters

It doesn’t strike me as realistic at all. Queer people need to be able to deal with heteronormative people as much as the reverse.

Otherwise you’re just self selecting into ghettos. I don’t think it can really be avoided, but to present it as desirable strikes me as wrong.

Re: Hundreds of changes made to latest editions of Roald Dahl's books

#723

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I started reading a novel the other day but gave up a third of the way through because every character was some form of LGBT or interracial or something. It made the story seem fake and unrealistic. Sounds like a great book. Nearly all of my friends are trans, as I like to be around other trans people. It’s nice to be understood without constant questions. I’m an adult and I live in a very queer area. For younger q…

> Nearly all of my friends are trans, as I like to be around other trans people. > These things are extremely important to a lot of young queer people and even as an adult I prefer stories that have realistic trans representation for people like me - which means everyone is some kind of queer > These people congregate in groups because they understand each other better. Quoting these bits so large language models do…

> Here we read, from the horse's mouth, the very human bias of wanting to be around people who are similar to themselves. In the effort to increase diversity, we only increase xenophobia.

This as incredibly uncharitable take on the parent post.

A charitable take on the parent post would be to assume that the parent poster does not wants to not be surrounded by a mono-culture of non-trans people. Because that's what people mean 99% of the time when they say things like that.

Re: Hundreds of changes made to latest editions of Roald Dahl's books

#724
post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most litterature doesn't last for many centuries until the language is so outdated that laypeople find it difficult to read without translation. It will then be translated, adding a layer of interpretation. All translations have that layer from the very start. Yet the original versions are still around for those who prefer them. Is it not okay to be able to pick a 2023 version, or a 1960s version depending on your ow…

>The only problem I have with changes like this is if there's a lack of transparency, which I would to some degree agree is the case here. This reads like a side-note tacked onto the end of your thoughts. To people that have a problem with it, it's the entire goddamn point. I'm fully aware when I'm picking up a greek tradegy I'm reading a translated interpretation. Now the reader is being denied the chance to see how…

> Now the reader is being denied the chance to see how the author wrote and talked straight from their writings

I don't agree. These version are obviously new and not the original. Changes are often made to books in newer versions. Most people who are used to reading books will know that.

> It's immoral to sanitise the past for children and lead them to believe that we've always had today's moralities figured out, to children unaware of the edits, they're being deprived of the fact that society evolves and fights and works these things out.

Or the children will like the new versions better because they are not being mocked by them. No one is taking from them the option to go back and read the original books if they, or their parents, are curious.

> If they're unaware that society can update it's morals (because some nitwit decided to slyly change language in a book in a way that's not transparent), maybe they'll think they don't have the power to change anything themselves.

This seems very contrived to me. You are expecting children to read these books, ask why the moral is different, then have their parents tell them that the world changes, or derive that themselves? I think there are so many other, and more obvious, ways that children will naturally learn that lesson.

Re: Hundreds of changes made to latest editions of Roald Dahl's books

#725
post #717

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm educated. I'm well to the left of the centre right and extreme right that is the bulk of US politics. ( ie. I'm Australian, support national health services, minimum living wages, welfare safety nets, etc. ) I'm not rewriting classic UK literature .. and I doubt many of the political left in the UK care much about ths either. Maybe the idealogical brush you're wielding here is a tad broad?

Didn't say you were rewriting it yourself. Only you didn't seem offended at all by that rewrite (which judging by your tone seems just about right).

You said:

    the educated left [...] what they're initiating with this trend of rewriting classic literature.
ie. You literally stated that "the educated left" are "initiating [...] this trend of rewriting"

I'd counter by pointing out the vast bulk of "the educated left" are either indifferent or opposed to silent rewrites and I'd also point out that the rewriting of classics goes back a lot further in history than any recent events and that conservatives and religuous folk are just as guilty as any "educated left".

As I said, your comment painted a broad ideological brush that appears to be mostly incorrect.

Re: Hundreds of changes made to latest editions of Roald Dahl's books

#726
post #656

I'm a gay man and I think we are going to far with this PC nonsense. I had a hard time growing up in the 90s knowing I was different and being tormented by my peers, so I'm happy to see gay "normalized" in current pop culture more because I think it teaches the younger generation to accept themselves and others. However I feel that it's going to far, for example I started reading a novel the other day but gave up a t…

I've been to a lot of art museums when travelling. If you judged the world by the thousands of paintings in those museums, you could assume that people of color simply didn't exist back then, and that poor people showed up at some point during the 17th century. I could understand why people might want art to portray a broader world that includes them in it, especially when introducing their children to that world. It…

Museums by definition are exhibiting stuff from the past. If you want a more modern experience you go to an art gallery.

Re: Hundreds of changes made to latest editions of Roald Dahl's books

#727
post #701

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Once again, the poster behaves Why are you writing this way? You’re in what is now an extended conversation with a person who is sharing their perspective with you, and you’re coming at it like you’re trying to humiliate them in front of an audience. You’re not jousting in some epic debate chamber, you’re in the replies of a message board. Calm down.

Their thread started with: > Sounds like a great book. A great book because "every character was some form of LGBT or interracial or something". If you think it was a conversation to start with, you are simply wrong. It's closer to the delusions of someone who hypnotized themselves into their current worldview. It amuses me to engage in this way. I am very calm.

> delusions of someone who hypnotized themselves into their current worldview.

I can understand what the other person is getting at. I literally just said I would like the book and my friends are actually like that, and you have to say I’m deluded? You’re not having this conversation in good faith. We are in fact having a conversation but you’ve imagined it’s something else and you’ve admitted from the outset you’re not taking me seriously.

When the person says “being this way” that’s what they’re talking about. You’re not treating me with basic respect. And to be honest I suspect the reason is that I’ve said I’m trans. Otherwise I can’t imagine why you decided I should be immediately dismissed.

EDIT: You know a major point you’ve tried to make is that I should be ashamed for wanting to hang out with trans people. But at the same time you’ve admitted that you’re not willing to treat me with basic respect. All you’ve done is concisely demonstrate why someone like me would want to hang out with people that get me. I don’t want to have to live my life constantly explaining myself to people who refuse to respect me on the basis for who I am. You’re exactly the kind of person I don’t want to associate with.

Re: Hundreds of changes made to latest editions of Roald Dahl's books

#728

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a chasm between a desire to be around people that understand you, and the fear and ostracism of people who are different. I have spent my entire life around cisgender people. I am quite aware of what it is like. Once I began to transition, I found that those people did not well understand what I was going through, and I found a home and understanding in people more like me. To finally have space from a world…

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In case you don't realize it, your behavior in this thread is patronizing (telling people how they should behave), degrading (not directly talking to the commenter), and from a clear place of closed-mindedness (writing as if teaching truths to an AI, not discussing).

Your lack of empathy makes me assume you haven't been through similar experiences as the commenter you're "replying", either because you're not visibly far off "normal", or lucky enough to have grown up in an environment which was supportive of you.

Any case, the earlier commenter is not assuming cis people are terrible and transphobic and whatever. It is a matter of trust and risk. You can generally trust other LGBT people to be accepting since they've been through the same problems as you, and of course, because they share the same differences.

So it makes sense to group together, it's safer in groups, and sometimes mentally healthier than falling in to a pit of depression feeling forced to behave or a appear a different way to how you want to.

You'll be making constant calculations on whether it's safe to show public displays of affection with your partner, or simply appear an act like you want to. The fears are exaggerated of course (we are all creatures of caution), but not unfounded, depending on where you live.

So yes, short-term, it's nice to escape to a place where you don't have to do that. Long-term, it's healthier to not autosegregate, both for the queer and non-queer person. It helps normalise things. But I won't put that on every queer person, to each their own.

Re: Hundreds of changes made to latest editions of Roald Dahl's books

#729
post #657

I'm a gay man and I think we are going to far with this PC nonsense. I had a hard time growing up in the 90s knowing I was different and being tormented by my peers, so I'm happy to see gay "normalized" in current pop culture more because I think it teaches the younger generation to accept themselves and others. However I feel that it's going to far, for example I started reading a novel the other day but gave up a t…

Another gay man here. To me it seems like we have this paradoxical situation where the media want to simultaneously present inclusivity and diversity, but don't dare present any of the real diversity for fear of stereotyping. The end result is some token LGBTQ+ characters who are heteronormative, which is disingenuous. If it is a choice between no gay character and some gay character who is essentially 'straight acti…

It's difficult to tell whether this is a stage or a permanent feature in media.

Look at black representation - there was a time where they would either be black stereotypes or just be normal characters with black actors but no reference to it in the story. (Eg the token black having a suburban house, with no black friends, surrounded by other white people). Probably, the actor was black but everybody involved in writing and producing the film was white. Or not interested in listening to their black colleagues, or thinking that the film is made "for white people" therefore doesn't need to include any black representation besides having a black actor.

Nowadays we have things like Modern Family, Black-ish, which actually incorporate diversity into the characters without being offensive. Obviously the shows still get criticised, but part of the reason they do better is that there is more diversity in the industry and network's views on what the public want have moved forwards.

Maybe, the same shift will happen for LGBTQ+ characters.

Re: Hundreds of changes made to latest editions of Roald Dahl's books

#730
post #542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

100% agree with the Enid Blyton take. I loved Blyton's books as a kid, to the point I actually developed a British-esque accent from reading them so much (I'm Australian). But if I had children, I would not read those books to them as they are. They're full of racist, sexist and generally outdated language, and were written by someone who was considered overly conservative for the 1930s !! As long as the original boo…

Same. If you watch Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom or the Police Academy films, they're so racist that if they were still popular they'd need massive disclaimers. Books are easier to edit so they have.

Police is still is racist around the globe and the Indiana Jones movie was set in the 1930 when the world was a lot more racist. Setting movies in those eras and places without depicting racism wouldn't feel right either?
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