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Civilization 7 Is in Development

polygon.com

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Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#191

Post by BlueTemplar »

root_axis wrote: post #95
dgant wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The dirty secret is we think we want the AI to play more realistically, but actually don't. This is true in many games but especially Civilization, where we rely on the AI behaving predictably to feel mastery over the environment, and for diplomacy to feel "fair". If the AI were playing to win, diplomacy would mostly evaporate as a game system. It'd break the fiction of the game.

Totally disagree. Civ increases AI difficulty by gifting the AI free army units, resources and settlers. There are currently no 4x games where the AI can challenge an experienced player on even terms - the first game to do this (while also being a good game in and of itself) will be a massive success.

Doesn't Galactic Civilizations 2 qualifies ? (Maybe for not particularly high values of "experienced".)

Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#192

Post by BlueTemplar »

Sakos wrote: post #149
dgant wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The dirty secret is we think we want the AI to play more realistically, but actually don't. This is true in many games but especially Civilization, where we rely on the AI behaving predictably to feel mastery over the environment, and for diplomacy to feel "fair". If the AI were playing to win, diplomacy would mostly evaporate as a game system. It'd break the fiction of the game.

Even here, comments are pointing out how bad Civ's AI is. The solution isn't more realistic AI. It's better deterministic "AI" that allows you to learn how it plays and devise different strategies for how to deal with it. Unfortunately, AI is largely an afterthought for developers and players don't really understand what they want either.

Probably because an AI competent at playing the game is ridiculously hard in a game development context.

Meanwhile an AI better at roleplaying now seems to be a low investment for a decent reward situation ?

Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#193

Post by BlueTemplar »

wcarss wrote: post #48
janalsncm wrote: post #6

It would be really interesting if some of the advances in AI could make their way into the game. Make the gameplay more human by incorporating recent advances in ML-based gameplay e.g. Diplomacy and Poker. Create more variety of dialogue using transformer models. Make in-game diplomacy more nuanced. There’s a lot that could be done.

Just give us an AI multiplayer mode where the AIs don't always pick one human to rush, but also aren't pushovers, and which doesn't completely break 200 turns in. Or if it does break, make it correctable. My friends all care more about continuing the game than about perfect fairness. Big plus for continuing to work like that while supporting modding. We have played every civ a bunch, and none of them seem to support…

This is probably something that should be achieved by map / scenario / mod design ?

In fact since this is a common request, I keep seeing people implementing it in all kinds of games, I would be surprised if nobody in the Civ community had never set this up and shared across the whole 6+2 games franchise ?

Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#194

Post by BlueTemplar »

peraspera wrote: post #94
janalsncm wrote: post #6

It would be really interesting if some of the advances in AI could make their way into the game. Make the gameplay more human by incorporating recent advances in ML-based gameplay e.g. Diplomacy and Poker. Create more variety of dialogue using transformer models. Make in-game diplomacy more nuanced. There’s a lot that could be done.

This is how I want them to use AI in the coming game: give me a prompt to ask questions about my civilisation and everyone else's. * Which one of my industrial zones has no workshops yet? * What luxury resources am I receiving via trade? And with which players? * What bonuses am I getting from the wonders I've built? I can get all that information myself, but it takes a lot of clicking around - provided that I rememb…

We use spreadsheets because they are extremely good for this, what you suggest seems like a downgrade (at least for those examples).

I would prefer more open games so that it's much easier to run queries like this myself.

Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#195

Post by BlueTemplar »

herewulf wrote: post #73
jasonkester wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, they kinda screwed themselves by getting the first one perfect. The ideal sequel would be "Civ 1, with new graphics and better automation". Then iterate on that every few years.

Civ V improved a lot on warfare. There's not a lot of depth to stacks upon stacks of the same units.

No, it was a big downgrade. It wrecked game balance, and the AI was incapable to deal with the new system... all while the worst issues with stacks had been solved years ago in Alpha Centauri !

Just because new players didn't know how to scout and/or that artillery does collateral damage to stacks...

Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#196

Post by [deleted] »

root_axis wrote: post #95
dgant wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The dirty secret is we think we want the AI to play more realistically, but actually don't. This is true in many games but especially Civilization, where we rely on the AI behaving predictably to feel mastery over the environment, and for diplomacy to feel "fair". If the AI were playing to win, diplomacy would mostly evaporate as a game system. It'd break the fiction of the game.

Totally disagree. Civ increases AI difficulty by gifting the AI free army units, resources and settlers. There are currently no 4x games where the AI can challenge an experienced player on even terms - the first game to do this (while also being a good game in and of itself) will be a massive success.

[deleted]

Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#200

Post by beebeepka »

chongli wrote: post #186
beebeepka wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for reminding me. Gotta check my steam library

You won't find it on Steam. It's only $5 US on GOG though!

Hmm, I am pretty sure I have the space civilization game (felt like a mod for iv) in my library. I guess you guys are talking about the original
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