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After Alaska Airlines planes bump runway, a scramble to ‘pull the plug’

seattletimes.com

101–110 of 189 posts

Re: After Alaska Airlines planes bump runway, a scramble to ‘pull the plug’

#101
post #84

If weight calculation is so crucial for take off, it seems like redundancy of the weight calculation is needed - a different weight calculation from a different company using a different method to verify against the main one.

Would it be possible to actually weigh the loaded plane to check the calculations, say with something like a bigger version of truck scales that the plane could taxi over?

Re: After Alaska Airlines planes bump runway, a scramble to ‘pull the plug’

#102

I don't understand why an airplane being heavier than what was estimated by the software would cause the tail to drag. I would assume it would cause the plane to not have sufficient thrust to take off, or to use more runway. But having the tail drag makes it seem like it had too much thrust, which translated to a steeper take off than anticipated... Can somebody explain?

In order to achieve the required lift force for takeoff, a higher angle of attack was needed to compensate for the incorrect low rotation airspeed. In effect, pilots raised to a higher nose-high attitude to achieve lift off by the expected point, and this resulted in a tail strike.

Re: After Alaska Airlines planes bump runway, a scramble to ‘pull the plug’

#103

I don't understand why an airplane being heavier than what was estimated by the software would cause the tail to drag. I would assume it would cause the plane to not have sufficient thrust to take off, or to use more runway. But having the tail drag makes it seem like it had too much thrust, which translated to a steeper take off than anticipated... Can somebody explain?

Not an expert, but here's my best guess. When I learned to fly a small plane, you pulled back the yoke at a specific speed. This is called 'rotation' and lifts the nose of the plane off the ground, (wheels are still on the ground) and changes the attitude of the wings, creating substantially more lift for the speed. The plane then lifts quickly off the runway. Presumably different possible weights in a larger plane would cause you to choose different speeds at which to rotate. I also presume rotation is also a more gradual process in a larger plane (a few seconds long???), so the 'early' part of the rotation occurs, gets the plane off the ground, and allows the space for the angle to become steeper in the later part of the rotation. Would be happy for an expert to review and comment on this.

Re: After Alaska Airlines planes bump runway, a scramble to ‘pull the plug’

#104
post #72
post #53

I was under the impression that SOP for most aircraft was to take off at full power, and if you happen to be lightly loaded you just get into the air faster. Was I wrong, or is this a recent change? If so, it seems like a concerning way for airlines to cut costs. Having excess power available at take off means there's a greater margin for error to handle emergencies (engine failure, bird strike, etc.).

Everyone else's (consumer's/engineer's/pilot's) "safety margin" is an executive's "cost to be optimized". Make no mistake. The Exec/finance class will cut into any margin that you aren't willing to make them directly legally culpable for.

Yes. Chelsea Sullenberger ("Sully") made the same point in an interview. He said in the early days of the airlines, the CEO was always a pilot, and error margins were set much higher than legally required. Now that CEOs tend NOT to be retired pilots, new regulations are needed to raise the safety margins beyond current regulatory points to what a safety-conscious pilot would choose.

Re: After Alaska Airlines planes bump runway, a scramble to ‘pull the plug’

#105
The article states the following about the software:

>"It delivers a message to the cockpit with crucial weight and balance data, including how many people are on board, the jet’s empty and gross weight and the position of its center of gravity.

>In a cockpit check before takeoff, this data is entered into the flight computer to determine how much thrust the engines will provide and at what speed the jet will be ready to lift off."

Given that overhead bins are regularly maxed out with carry-on luggage now since airlines began charging for checked bags, how are they able to accurately account for the weight and balance? Airlines seem to almost never weigh customers carry-on at check in.

Re: After Alaska Airlines planes bump runway, a scramble to ‘pull the plug’

#106
post #18
post #10

> Peyton added that even though the update to the DynamicSource software had been tested over an extended period, the bug was missed because it only presented when many aircraft at the same time were using the system. That seems horribly wrong to me. I can understand software being slow under load, but being wrong under load sounds like a horrible internal architecture problem.

Maybe a timeout. Some part of a value returned 0 if it didn’t return in time.

Sounds like poor error handing. 0 is valid value is not a substitute for no data or error.

Re: After Alaska Airlines planes bump runway, a scramble to ‘pull the plug’

#107

737-900s are notoriously tail-heavy. Some airlines require that they use tail stands when parked, and some airlines (like United) have taken measures to redistribute weight forward of the rear landing gear (by moving one of the economy lavatories so that it sits directly behind first class/in front of most economy seating).

Height of the landing gear is fixed, they've milked the 737 design by stretching the length making it vulnerable to a tail strike.

Re: After Alaska Airlines planes bump runway, a scramble to ‘pull the plug’

#108
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean yes, would you rather flights are $10,000 or $100,000 each so the engines are taken apart and rebuilt each time after a flight? Reducing the maintenance interval requirements 'safely' is good for everyone.

Let's reduce the intervals even further so flights are only $10 then, right?

If we could do it safely, then it would be stupid not to.

Re: After Alaska Airlines planes bump runway, a scramble to ‘pull the plug’

#109
post #53

I was under the impression that SOP for most aircraft was to take off at full power, and if you happen to be lightly loaded you just get into the air faster. Was I wrong, or is this a recent change? If so, it seems like a concerning way for airlines to cut costs. Having excess power available at take off means there's a greater margin for error to handle emergencies (engine failure, bird strike, etc.).

They use reduced power to extend the life of the engines

Re: After Alaska Airlines planes bump runway, a scramble to ‘pull the plug’

#110
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"huge" is not the same as "horrible". One racy boi can take out an airplane.

But calling something an "internal architectural problem" implies things are fundamentally designed wrong, and the code needs a rewrite. My point was the architecture can definitely be fine, but you can still have bugs (even catastrophic ones) because someone left out a `synchronized` keyword somewhere.

It could still be

For example, one way to use SQL is to escape your parameters and then concat them straight into your SQL string. However, if someone leaves out an ‘escape’ somewhere, you have a major security incident

The other way is to pass parameters separately as data to your SQL driver. It completely negates the problem

If you’ve chosen the first way in your project already, you’ve committed to a major internal architectural problem. In the same vein, maybe if your code requires sprinkling ‘synchronized’ everywhere, you did it wrong

But that said, we don’t know what actually is the problem since it’s just a marketing statement saying that high load was the cause and that doesn’t tell us anything

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