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Civilization 7 Is in Development

polygon.com

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Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#131
post #38
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The dirty secret is we think we want the AI to play more realistically, but actually don't. This is true in many games but especially Civilization, where we rely on the AI behaving predictably to feel mastery over the environment, and for diplomacy to feel "fair". If the AI were playing to win, diplomacy would mostly evaporate as a game system. It'd break the fiction of the game.

That's what the developers say, but I think it's part true and part a cop out. The AI in Civ 5 & 6 is just so so bad, that it's only challenging when you play on the really hard modes that gives them all sorts of cheats. And then it's a bit less fun because you're walking the line between impossible because of the cheating and having to essentially exploit the AI because of the cheating. I don't necessarily want an A…

Actually, if you play Stellaris, there is a mod called StarNet AI, which uses weights that are considered "meta". From my very limited personal experience (I got destroyed), it is not really fun to play an AI that uses very good strategies as it eliminates all previously viable, but not optimal playstyles.

Also, it feels _really_ good when you get to a new ship tier faster than your neighbors. The reverse is, however, very frustrating, as you are forced to play catch.

Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#133

It would be really interesting if some of the advances in AI could make their way into the game. Make the gameplay more human by incorporating recent advances in ML-based gameplay e.g. Diplomacy and Poker. Create more variety of dialogue using transformer models. Make in-game diplomacy more nuanced. There’s a lot that could be done.

This is how I want them to use AI in the coming game: give me a prompt to ask questions about my civilisation and everyone else's. * Which one of my industrial zones has no workshops yet? * What luxury resources am I receiving via trade? And with which players? * What bonuses am I getting from the wonders I've built? I can get all that information myself, but it takes a lot of clicking around - provided that I rememb…

That’s a really good fit, seems chat AIs would be really good at it.

Next we’ll have a game where that’s the only interface for this information, and enemy spies makes it lie to you.

Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#136
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's what the developers say, but I think it's part true and part a cop out. The AI in Civ 5 & 6 is just so so bad, that it's only challenging when you play on the really hard modes that gives them all sorts of cheats. And then it's a bit less fun because you're walking the line between impossible because of the cheating and having to essentially exploit the AI because of the cheating. I don't necessarily want an A…

Sid had achieved competent but un-fun AI early on in the series and backed off. Players hate it because of how good it is at sacking poorly defended cities, especially early on when the AI knew too much about the global map.

The main thing I'd want in a Civ AI is to be barely competant at combat. Right now, if you can get a couple archers up in time, you can beat an AI army that's 2-5x your size depending on the terrain. Yeah, it feels bad as a beginner when you haven't bothered to build any military and an AI comes and kills you, but a beginner should be playing a beginner mode.

I'd love God mode AI to put up any sort of half decent fight without needing to have so many more units that just go through an endless meat grinder because they can't coordinate or figure out how to back off and heal.

Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...what do you mean? Civ is very moddable.

I had to look it up. There are a bunch of mods, wow. I stand corrected, sort of. The UI to browse these mods is something out of a geocities website from the 1990s. I should've been more specific, I meant modding that enables creators to actually make money and gets promoted by the game developer - not a dark corner that hasn't been updated in 30 years where you can click an image but can't get to the next image with…

That kind of modding, that's surely an utopia isn't it? Anywhere outside the Factorio utopia that this can happen?

Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#138
post #5

Did Civ6 end up being good? Civ games usually only beat their predecessors once the last expansion comes out. I stopped playing 6 after the climate change DLC. Was pretty underwhelmed. Has it matured now like 5 did?

I started with Civ2 and played through most of the series. I played a lot of 5 and 6. To me Civ6 is not only the best game in the series. It's my favorite game in general.

The biggest difference is that civilizations in 6 feel distinct. In 5, all of them felt generic with cosmetic differences between them - except for Venice. In 6, with each civilization (and leader) it's like playing a different game. Preserving nature with Maori, settling tundra with Canada, cramming cities and districts with Japan, pillaging with Norway, eurekas with Babylon. I can pick the game again after two months and have a fun evening, without getting bored.

Speaking of districts, I love this mechanic. It makes sense and I like the extra puzzle and planning. I see how it gives board game vibes and I'm ok with it. Seeing the Civ series as simulation games is a mistake. They never were and they can't be. The reason for that is scale - both in size and time. The map is a grid of either squares or hexagons. Each tile has one feature and units move between them. If I zoom in, I don't get sub-tiles where I can do micro decisions. This constrains how realistic the simulation can be. On a world map, a peninsula of the size of Europe can have only a handful of cities.

Time have similar problems. Bronze Age passes quicker than the Modern Era. As a consequence, building the Sydney Opera House can take a hundred of years. And that's fine, because I pick gameplay over realism any time. Even the cartoonish art style doesn't bother me at all. In fact, I find it charming and unique compared to a boring, faux-realistic style of Civ5 which steps into an uncanny valley.

If you want a simulation approach, pick Paradox games. I tried them and I didn't like them, but I understand why they have a cult following. They still have board game elements, but the games are designed with constraints in mind. The gameplay takes a couple of centuries at most. The map isn't randomly generated, but it's scalable. The kingdoms and nations have fixed place. These decisions are consistent and make for a fun gameplay because Paradox games don't try to do everything.

It's better if Civ stays with a board-game approach. Having a clear identity is better than trying to be both "gamey" and realistic. It won't be for everyone and that's ok. For me, Civ6 is a good foundation. I'd like for Civ7 to use some ideas from Humankind, like elevated terrain, stackable armies with zoomed-in combat phase, the fame victory, and traits of a civilization that evolve over time. I'd also like to delegate parts of the game if I choose to. It would help with tedious parts and let me focus on things I find interesting.

Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#139
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The dirty secret is we think we want the AI to play more realistically, but actually don't. This is true in many games but especially Civilization, where we rely on the AI behaving predictably to feel mastery over the environment, and for diplomacy to feel "fair". If the AI were playing to win, diplomacy would mostly evaporate as a game system. It'd break the fiction of the game.

Totally disagree. Civ increases AI difficulty by gifting the AI free army units, resources and settlers. There are currently no 4x games where the AI can challenge an experienced player on even terms - the first game to do this (while also being a good game in and of itself) will be a massive success.

It would be a major breakthrough if the AI could plausible adapt to the human players.

Every one gets a challenge (or not if they chose so). We are probably not quite there yet.

Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#140

Sorry I developed a Dwarf Fortress addiction in the meantime so I don't have time for this anymore It's not you Civ, it's my dwarves

Similar for me but with Crusader Kings 3.

I can't imagine playing Civ now without murder, marriages, a dynasty to care for etc. Crusader Kings has prompted me to read dozens on history books due to how engages you with real historical events in a way that no Civ ever has beyond checking a wiki page on a world wonder or some such.

My perfect game would be Crusader Kings with a bit of Civ flavour: add the tech tree, world wonders, exploration and more freedom for where to found cities and I would be over the moon.

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