Civ 4 was peak Civilisation in my opinion. Everything about it felt polished, fun, and intentional. Great music and voice acting, wonderful expansion packs, great multiplayer that didn't require any other service, great scenario and custom maps.
Civilization 7 Is in Development
121–130 of 224 posts
Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development
#122Civ 4 was peak Civilisation in my opinion. Everything about it felt polished, fun, and intentional. Great music and voice acting, wonderful expansion packs, great multiplayer that didn't require any other service, great scenario and custom maps.
and then they had this weird idea that a successful strategy game should abandon everything and, instead, should become a micromanagement game with very little possible automation (the builders system instead of workers)
Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development
#123Earlier quoted context omitted.
>That sort of thing is extremely hard to program Which is why the parent of the entire chain mentioned the advances in AI.
Why would we expect the recent advances in AI to be applicable to this problem?
You could chat to the AI, and the AI responses can be parsed to trigger in-game actions (e.g. declare war or offer a trade).
Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development
#124Earlier quoted context omitted.
The dirty secret is we think we want the AI to play more realistically, but actually don't. This is true in many games but especially Civilization, where we rely on the AI behaving predictably to feel mastery over the environment, and for diplomacy to feel "fair". If the AI were playing to win, diplomacy would mostly evaporate as a game system. It'd break the fiction of the game.
This is being repeated during every AI comptenecy discussion, giving an example of "you wouldnt want AI that never misses in FPS". But its completely missing point. We want AI that is capable to never miss, and then is tuned down in a controllable matter. We want smart AI that are dumbed down in precise ways to create illusion of dumb AI, not dumb AI boosted by resources and damage modifiers to give illusion of a sma…
My definition of a smart AI is an AI that is smart at mimicking a human - that means as a Game AI it would play an entirely different game of "mimicking a human" in essence.
The issue is that a lot of things a computer controlled player does is entirely too easy to implement with just a few random rolls. This starts to fall apart if you want to vary the difficulty. So you can get a credible if disdained "AI" in a lot less effort that say training a Neural net to predict what action a human would likely take next.
There simply is no "GPT-1" AI of playing a game yet much less a "GPT-3" level one and I do not think that it would be entirely easy at all to "tune" it in any way to get a consistent difficulty scale.
Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development
#125Earlier quoted context omitted.
The dirty secret is we think we want the AI to play more realistically, but actually don't. This is true in many games but especially Civilization, where we rely on the AI behaving predictably to feel mastery over the environment, and for diplomacy to feel "fair". If the AI were playing to win, diplomacy would mostly evaporate as a game system. It'd break the fiction of the game.
This is being repeated during every AI comptenecy discussion, giving an example of "you wouldnt want AI that never misses in FPS". But its completely missing point. We want AI that is capable to never miss, and then is tuned down in a controllable matter. We want smart AI that are dumbed down in precise ways to create illusion of dumb AI, not dumb AI boosted by resources and damage modifiers to give illusion of a sma…
ah but there is no smart AI yet
Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development
#126Earlier quoted context omitted.
right, thats why some moves by alphago were called beautiful and deeply creative by human go masters? idk know why this keeps getting repeated, it is NOT a statistical analysis of past data and a prompt. It is not just pattern matching. It is building models to predict patterns, which is a very different statement. And the fact of the matter is, is that is mostly still an unknown blackbox. It is an area of active res…
And therefore it's "intelligent"? eye roll AI as we know it is nothing more than marketing. At least in the gaming sense everyone knows there are no actual smarts.
That's not what the parent claimed. For the love of the holy flying fuck!
Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development
#127Earlier quoted context omitted.
The dirty secret is we think we want the AI to play more realistically, but actually don't. This is true in many games but especially Civilization, where we rely on the AI behaving predictably to feel mastery over the environment, and for diplomacy to feel "fair". If the AI were playing to win, diplomacy would mostly evaporate as a game system. It'd break the fiction of the game.
That's what the developers say, but I think it's part true and part a cop out. The AI in Civ 5 & 6 is just so so bad, that it's only challenging when you play on the really hard modes that gives them all sorts of cheats. And then it's a bit less fun because you're walking the line between impossible because of the cheating and having to essentially exploit the AI because of the cheating. I don't necessarily want an A…
IMO it's the reverse. I could swear some of these games intentionally keep the gap between good-play and bad-play very small so as to hide the deficiencies of AI.
The lack of choice in buildings, reasonably inconsequential bonus tile yields, minimalist tech tree where you have to research everything, lack of synergies between buildings-resources-terrains, etc. all make a lot more sense when you see what horrendous decisions the AI makes even on hardest difficulties.
Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development
#128Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why would we expect the recent advances in AI to be applicable to this problem?
You could chat to the AI, and the AI responses can be parsed to trigger in-game actions (e.g. declare war or offer a trade).
Bing, you are playing Civilization as a Nuclear Gandhi.
Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development
#129Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why would we expect the recent advances in AI to be applicable to this problem?
You could chat to the AI, and the AI responses can be parsed to trigger in-game actions (e.g. declare war or offer a trade).
While I can't prove it wouldn't work, it seems doubtful. How would the LLM be made aware of the game state?
Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development
#130I bought the original when it came out and, together with Master of Orion, it ate so much of my life that it added a year to my time at university. Since then I've bought every new Civ as it came out and maybe played through two or three games before abandoning it. None of them capture the original, but rather just add more and different crap to micromanage. They're just not fun. The big exception is Alpha Centauri,…
Civilization Revolution was also released for the Nintendo DS, which should be easier to get a copy of and emulate.