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Civilization 7 Is in Development

polygon.com

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Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#91

Post by orthoxerox »

dgant wrote: post #24
janalsncm wrote: post #6

It would be really interesting if some of the advances in AI could make their way into the game. Make the gameplay more human by incorporating recent advances in ML-based gameplay e.g. Diplomacy and Poker. Create more variety of dialogue using transformer models. Make in-game diplomacy more nuanced. There’s a lot that could be done.

The dirty secret is we think we want the AI to play more realistically, but actually don't. This is true in many games but especially Civilization, where we rely on the AI behaving predictably to feel mastery over the environment, and for diplomacy to feel "fair". If the AI were playing to win, diplomacy would mostly evaporate as a game system. It'd break the fiction of the game.

SMAC had a few restrictions that made dealing with its leaders harder, but more realistic. In Civ 4 and later Civs you can build complex deals and propose them to the AI leaders. If they are bad, they tell you they are not acceptable and you can try again and again. You can see the "diplomatic price" of each item.

In SMAC you could make a single proposal per turn. If it was good, they would accept it, if it was almost good, they would counter your offer, if it wasn't good enough, they would actually get madder at you and stop talking for the rest of the turn (or for a few turns if you relations were that bad). That was the only feedback you'd get.

This small change made parlaying with AI leaders feel more realistic. Instead of going "Hm, you won't give me Zaragoza and all your money, because 'we are losing' is only at +15, I'll come next turn when it should be at +17" you start building a mental model of each leader and proposing deals you think they should accept.

Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#92

Post by XorNot »

corbulo wrote: post #17
dangoldin wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read an interview a while back with a game developer who was asked why video games have historically had so much fighting and he responded with "it's easy to write." Take away is that as AI improves we will move to a world where conflict in video games will be very different - your example but also imagine being able to actually have to argue/convince characters in games using free form speech.

Exactly! Imagine word choice making the difference. Looking not too strong nor too weak. It would make for a really compelling game. Given Civ's AI track record my hopes are high but expectations low.

A large language model tied into a Civilization game as the game's diplomacy engine would be a hell of a thing.

Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#94

Post by peraspera »

janalsncm wrote: post #6

It would be really interesting if some of the advances in AI could make their way into the game. Make the gameplay more human by incorporating recent advances in ML-based gameplay e.g. Diplomacy and Poker. Create more variety of dialogue using transformer models. Make in-game diplomacy more nuanced. There’s a lot that could be done.

This is how I want them to use AI in the coming game: give me a prompt to ask questions about my civilisation and everyone else's.

* Which one of my industrial zones has no workshops yet? * What luxury resources am I receiving via trade? And with which players? * What bonuses am I getting from the wonders I've built?

I can get all that information myself, but it takes a lot of clicking around - provided that I remember where to source it. Make it a Q&A, and playing the game will feel much less like working with spreadsheets.

Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#95

Post by root_axis »

dgant wrote: post #24
janalsncm wrote: post #6

It would be really interesting if some of the advances in AI could make their way into the game. Make the gameplay more human by incorporating recent advances in ML-based gameplay e.g. Diplomacy and Poker. Create more variety of dialogue using transformer models. Make in-game diplomacy more nuanced. There’s a lot that could be done.

The dirty secret is we think we want the AI to play more realistically, but actually don't. This is true in many games but especially Civilization, where we rely on the AI behaving predictably to feel mastery over the environment, and for diplomacy to feel "fair". If the AI were playing to win, diplomacy would mostly evaporate as a game system. It'd break the fiction of the game.

Totally disagree. Civ increases AI difficulty by gifting the AI free army units, resources and settlers. There are currently no 4x games where the AI can challenge an experienced player on even terms - the first game to do this (while also being a good game in and of itself) will be a massive success.

Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#96

Post by StanislavPetrov »

dangoldin wrote: post #9
corbulo wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats actually a great idea. Imagine actually being able to talk Ghandi down from nuking everyone!

I read an interview a while back with a game developer who was asked why video games have historically had so much fighting and he responded with "it's easy to write." Take away is that as AI improves we will move to a world where conflict in video games will be very different - your example but also imagine being able to actually have to argue/convince characters in games using free form speech.

Thou has lost an eighth!

Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#97

Post by Karrot_Kream »

csomar wrote: post #88

After playing Europa Universalis, I don’t think Civ is doing it for me. Here are a few issues: - You can’t automate many tasks. This is especially true in Civ 6 where you have to re-select everything. I’m not certain who thought this is a good idea. - As you progress in the game, the turn time become ridiculously long. - For it to be reasonably fast, you are limited in term of map size and the number of opponents. -…

I played Civ I-IV and then discovered Paradox Interactive's games. Just stopped playing Civ after that. I've played some games of Victoria 2 that are so interesting I chat about them with history nerds around dinner.

Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#98

Post by MaxikCZ »

dgant wrote: post #24
janalsncm wrote: post #6

It would be really interesting if some of the advances in AI could make their way into the game. Make the gameplay more human by incorporating recent advances in ML-based gameplay e.g. Diplomacy and Poker. Create more variety of dialogue using transformer models. Make in-game diplomacy more nuanced. There’s a lot that could be done.

The dirty secret is we think we want the AI to play more realistically, but actually don't. This is true in many games but especially Civilization, where we rely on the AI behaving predictably to feel mastery over the environment, and for diplomacy to feel "fair". If the AI were playing to win, diplomacy would mostly evaporate as a game system. It'd break the fiction of the game.

This is being repeated during every AI comptenecy discussion, giving an example of "you wouldnt want AI that never misses in FPS". But its completely missing point.

We want AI that is capable to never miss, and then is tuned down in a controllable matter. We want smart AI that are dumbed down in precise ways to create illusion of dumb AI, not dumb AI boosted by resources and damage modifiers to give illusion of a smart one.

You can make smart AI look dumb (thus weaker), but hardly ever you can make dumb AI look smart, thus now the strong AI is just dumb AI with advantage

Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#99

Post by presentation »

dgant wrote: post #24
janalsncm wrote: post #6

It would be really interesting if some of the advances in AI could make their way into the game. Make the gameplay more human by incorporating recent advances in ML-based gameplay e.g. Diplomacy and Poker. Create more variety of dialogue using transformer models. Make in-game diplomacy more nuanced. There’s a lot that could be done.

The dirty secret is we think we want the AI to play more realistically, but actually don't. This is true in many games but especially Civilization, where we rely on the AI behaving predictably to feel mastery over the environment, and for diplomacy to feel "fair". If the AI were playing to win, diplomacy would mostly evaporate as a game system. It'd break the fiction of the game.

Hard disagree, I find civ to be crappy in single player because it’s AI is so dumb and just gets unfair advantages to remain competitive, it turns the game into just cheesing the stupid AI until you win at harder difficulties. So I ended up only playing multiplayer, but since the devs don’t care about making a reasonable networking stack it just crashes all the time. Hopefully they fix the AI, but if not I hope they actually make the networking stack not suck.

Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#100

Post by MaxikCZ »

csomar wrote: post #88

After playing Europa Universalis, I don’t think Civ is doing it for me. Here are a few issues: - You can’t automate many tasks. This is especially true in Civ 6 where you have to re-select everything. I’m not certain who thought this is a good idea. - As you progress in the game, the turn time become ridiculously long. - For it to be reasonably fast, you are limited in term of map size and the number of opponents. -…

I think Paradox studio is the real underdog, and everyone loving Civ games should check them out. I love the 4x concept and tried almost all major games in this category, but left after one or two playtroughs because there was always something pushing me away.

Usually its the need for mocromanaging everything on huge scales in longer games.

Im hooked on Crusader Kings 3 for a year now, and want to get into Europa Universalis and Victoria 3 afterwards

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