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It's probably time to stop recommending Clean Code (2020)

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Re: It's probably time to stop recommending Clean Code (2020)

#71

Post by tgv »

Groxx wrote: post #59

Yeah. This fits with my reading of it as well. Periodic chunks of "yep, makes sense" scattered through a really disturbing miasma of questionable stuff and incredibly tightly bound methods sharing gigantic balls of state that must be called in an order, but with nothing that hints at or enforces that order. It adds up to a really horrific result pretty frequently. I'm not sure how it got its status at the beginning,…

I once stated a few of the author's criticisms in a forum, one of which was the 3 line function, only to get a reply from Martin himself, saying that he hadn't written that. Unfortunately for him, everybody reads it in the book, and his apostles repeat it, and it's part of his success.

Re: It's probably time to stop recommending Clean Code (2020)

#72

Post by jakelazaroff »

ZephyrBlu wrote: post #11

I like Carmack's approach to functions the best: "If a function is only called from a single place, consider inlining it. If a function is called from multiple places, see if it is possible to arrange for the work to be done in a single place, perhaps with flags, and inline that. If there are multiple versions of a function, consider making a single function with more, possibly defaulted, parameters. If the work is c…

Man, I really disagree with those first three. Branches should be avoided whenever possible, not leaned into. Especially within abstractions.

Re: It's probably time to stop recommending Clean Code (2020)

#73

Post by barrkel »

wizofaus wrote: post #8
userbinator wrote: post #5

A common theme not only in software but other industries: Beware of people selling you advice. They are the ones who will breed dogmatic illogical cargo-cults of people whose only rebuttal when questioned is some variant of "because someone who sold me this book that claims it'll make my code better said so", and that can't be a good thing in general. but we assume that Martin doesn't literally mean that every functi…

Have you worked with 5000 line functions? Just trying to set breakpoints in them at meaningful points is a nightmare. Give me 1000 5-line functions any day - providing of course they have sensible names (and ideally don't cause unexpected side-effects etc., though when a function is 5-lines long, that's fairly easy to spot; in a 5000-line function, fuhgeddaboudit. My personal guideline is "it should fit on a screen"…

I have. It was mostly a big switch statement, and individual bodies could be read in sequence. It was easy to work with and you could read it by scrolling, instead of jumping around a file.

Re: It's probably time to stop recommending Clean Code (2020)

#74

Post by [deleted] »

emodendroket wrote: post #66
Groxx wrote: post #59

Yeah. This fits with my reading of it as well. Periodic chunks of "yep, makes sense" scattered through a really disturbing miasma of questionable stuff and incredibly tightly bound methods sharing gigantic balls of state that must be called in an order, but with nothing that hints at or enforces that order. It adds up to a really horrific result pretty frequently. I'm not sure how it got its status at the beginning,…

It reminds me of the Elements of Style, which has for decades had a reputation as the book every English writer should read. In reality, it's a mix of obvious truisms ("omit needless words," gee, thanks, but how do I identify the needless ones?) and grammatical advice where the authors are so confused about the concepts that they constantly violate their own precepts. However, at least EB White was a talented author…

[deleted]

Re: It's probably time to stop recommending Clean Code (2020)

#75

Post by matsemann »

Meh, I don't get the hate for Clean Code, or other books like this.

Should you take everything it says as gospel? No. Did reading it in the beginning of my career make me a better developer? Yes.

Its the same as with every other practice. Do I practice TDD? No. Did trying it out for some time learn me things I still apply to code I write 10 years later? Yes.

Re: It's probably time to stop recommending Clean Code (2020)

#76

Post by tgv »

gavinhoward wrote: post #38
fzeindl wrote: post #26

Slightly offtopic but I have summarized my own 20 years of clean coding experience into a system: https://www.fabianzeindl.com/posts/the-codequality-pyramid

I like that post of yours. If there's one thing I slightly disagree with, it's that I would put Code Performance below Test Performance, but that's because my personal experience ([1]) has been that code performance affects test performance more than anything else. But still, this is an excellent model, and I'm bookmarking it. Thanks! [1]: https://gavinhoward.com/2019/08/why-perfect-software-is-near...

I think that in terms of "what to strive for", the pyramid makes sense in a generalist way.

And, code performance is, as you say, part of test performance. If the tests take too long, perhaps the code needs to be improved. OTOH, I have got a few test suites that run for 30 minutes or more, just because the search space is so big. But that's code that only needs to be tested once.

Re: It's probably time to stop recommending Clean Code (2020)

#77

Post by cush »

dietrichepp wrote: post #53

My experience is that I run into a lot of relatively junior programmers who are concerned about clean code. Is my code clean? How do I organize my code? How do I make it clean? Should we clean up this code? I almost never want to use the word “clean” when I’m talking about code. These days, when someone asks me to review code, and they start talking about “clean” code, I shift the discussion to two points—code should…

It can definitely be confusing to hear "clean" when communicating in a professional setting.

That said, in the book he covers correctness and understandability in nearly every paragraph. It's all the book is about really. It's called "clean" because it's concise and a catchy book title.

Re: It's probably time to stop recommending Clean Code (2020)

#78

Post by iainmerrick »

matsemann wrote: post #75

Meh, I don't get the hate for Clean Code, or other books like this. Should you take everything it says as gospel? No. Did reading it in the beginning of my career make me a better developer? Yes. Its the same as with every other practice. Do I practice TDD? No. Did trying it out for some time learn me things I still apply to code I write 10 years later? Yes.

Don’t you think the example code quoted looks really bad? If the code is that bad, why should the advice be trusted?

Re: It's probably time to stop recommending Clean Code (2020)

#79

Post by al-king »

I think _entirely_ ignoring the kinds of considerations it covers is such a typical failure case for inexperienced programmers (or non-career coders) that it's an excellent prod to expand the scope of what enters their awareness when writing code.

Ideally folks notice discrepancies between their experiences and the things it recommends and find their taste and judgement that way, though it doesn't always work out.

So like, maybe the fact that some of the advice is clearly dreadful if you try it could be a useful wedge against the kind of cult thinking so pervasive in software. I've seen considerably more grief from people treating his SOLID stuff like a bible that clean code. YMMV.

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