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Civilization 7 Is in Development

polygon.com

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Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#41

Post by gmadsen »

epigramx wrote: post #26
dgant wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The dirty secret is we think we want the AI to play more realistically, but actually don't. This is true in many games but especially Civilization, where we rely on the AI behaving predictably to feel mastery over the environment, and for diplomacy to feel "fair". If the AI were playing to win, diplomacy would mostly evaporate as a game system. It'd break the fiction of the game.

a lot about the nonsensical lust for 'ai' will be solved, once people realize it's not literal human 'intelligence', it's just a collage of data based on statistical analysis of past data and a prompt.

right, thats why some moves by alphago were called beautiful and deeply creative by human go masters?

idk know why this keeps getting repeated, it is NOT a statistical analysis of past data and a prompt. It is not just pattern matching. It is building models to predict patterns, which is a very different statement. And the fact of the matter is, is that is mostly still an unknown blackbox. It is an area of active research to understand the mechanisms of this blackbox.

Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#42

Post by fshbbdssbbgdd »

dgant wrote: post #24
janalsncm wrote: post #6

It would be really interesting if some of the advances in AI could make their way into the game. Make the gameplay more human by incorporating recent advances in ML-based gameplay e.g. Diplomacy and Poker. Create more variety of dialogue using transformer models. Make in-game diplomacy more nuanced. There’s a lot that could be done.

The dirty secret is we think we want the AI to play more realistically, but actually don't. This is true in many games but especially Civilization, where we rely on the AI behaving predictably to feel mastery over the environment, and for diplomacy to feel "fair". If the AI were playing to win, diplomacy would mostly evaporate as a game system. It'd break the fiction of the game.

If you can make an AI that can play like a smart human, you can make an AI that plays like a dumb human. And you can design a game that rewards cooperation between smart or dumb players.

Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#43

Post by yyyk »

It should first take the good parts from the previous 'classic' games: CIV IV's modability, CIV 2's Throne room, somewhat more random combat (a bit like original CIV but not as much), a half decent AI... and don't rush it.

Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#44

Post by seszett »

dgant wrote: post #24
janalsncm wrote: post #6

It would be really interesting if some of the advances in AI could make their way into the game. Make the gameplay more human by incorporating recent advances in ML-based gameplay e.g. Diplomacy and Poker. Create more variety of dialogue using transformer models. Make in-game diplomacy more nuanced. There’s a lot that could be done.

The dirty secret is we think we want the AI to play more realistically, but actually don't. This is true in many games but especially Civilization, where we rely on the AI behaving predictably to feel mastery over the environment, and for diplomacy to feel "fair". If the AI were playing to win, diplomacy would mostly evaporate as a game system. It'd break the fiction of the game.

I'm not sure why you would think they, when multiplayer games obviously show that intelligent opponents are nice to play against and that diplomacy is not only possible but much more interesting between humans.

Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#45

Post by xref »

jasonkester wrote: post #39

I bought the original when it came out and, together with Master of Orion, it ate so much of my life that it added a year to my time at university. Since then I've bought every new Civ as it came out and maybe played through two or three games before abandoning it. None of them capture the original, but rather just add more and different crap to micromanage. They're just not fun. The big exception is Alpha Centauri,…

I dunno, just based on how much studios believe they need to deliver in a AAA title. You seem like you’re craving a simpler experience than the enormous budget and revenue expectations dictate will get created.

Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#46

Post by jasonkester »

xref wrote: post #45
jasonkester wrote: post #39

I bought the original when it came out and, together with Master of Orion, it ate so much of my life that it added a year to my time at university. Since then I've bought every new Civ as it came out and maybe played through two or three games before abandoning it. None of them capture the original, but rather just add more and different crap to micromanage. They're just not fun. The big exception is Alpha Centauri,…

I dunno, just based on how much studios believe they need to deliver in a AAA title. You seem like you’re craving a simpler experience than the enormous budget and revenue expectations dictate will get created.

Yeah, they kinda screwed themselves by getting the first one perfect.

The ideal sequel would be "Civ 1, with new graphics and better automation". Then iterate on that every few years.

Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#47

Post by recuter »

corbulo wrote: post #7
janalsncm wrote: post #6

It would be really interesting if some of the advances in AI could make their way into the game. Make the gameplay more human by incorporating recent advances in ML-based gameplay e.g. Diplomacy and Poker. Create more variety of dialogue using transformer models. Make in-game diplomacy more nuanced. There’s a lot that could be done.

Thats actually a great idea. Imagine actually being able to talk Ghandi down from nuking everyone!

I publicly denounce you for spreading lies: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Gandhi

Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#48

Post by wcarss »

janalsncm wrote: post #6

It would be really interesting if some of the advances in AI could make their way into the game. Make the gameplay more human by incorporating recent advances in ML-based gameplay e.g. Diplomacy and Poker. Create more variety of dialogue using transformer models. Make in-game diplomacy more nuanced. There’s a lot that could be done.

Just give us an AI multiplayer mode where the AIs don't always pick one human to rush, but also aren't pushovers, and which doesn't completely break 200 turns in.

Or if it does break, make it correctable. My friends all care more about continuing the game than about perfect fairness.

Big plus for continuing to work like that while supporting modding.

We have played every civ a bunch, and none of them seem to support a 3-4 player "comp stomp" that hits the balance of hard late game, no cheap kills in the first 50 turns.

Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#49

Post by zem »

jasonkester wrote: post #46
xref wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dunno, just based on how much studios believe they need to deliver in a AAA title. You seem like you’re craving a simpler experience than the enormous budget and revenue expectations dictate will get created.

Yeah, they kinda screwed themselves by getting the first one perfect. The ideal sequel would be "Civ 1, with new graphics and better automation". Then iterate on that every few years.

freeciv might scratch that itch a little

Re: Civilization 7 Is in Development

#50

Post by chaostheory »

corbulo wrote: post #5

Did Civ6 end up being good? Civ games usually only beat their predecessors once the last expansion comes out. I stopped playing 6 after the climate change DLC. Was pretty underwhelmed. Has it matured now like 5 did?

It’s more realistic than Civ 5, but it’s not as fun. I feel that they made Civ 6 into a board game so that underpowered systems like the Nintendo Switch can run it. Civ 6 feels like a blend of Civ Revolution and Civ 5. I’m sticking to Civ 5.
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