Blowing holes in Seymour Hersh’s pipe dream • Hacker News Board

Re: Blowing holes in Seymour Hersh’s pipe dream

#371

Post by tptacek » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 5:25 PM UTC

aaron695 wrote: post #336

tptacek wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you've picked up the argument being made there, which is that, being a pipeline, the Norwegian Navy wasn't constrained to one particular spot to disable it: it runs seven hundred and fifty miles under the Baltic Sea. The author of this post is saying Hersh doesn't know what a pipeline, not that the USG doesn't. Try another paragraph. Let's interrogate it. For instance: why is the Norwegian Navy allocati…

> Why wouldn't they use a civilian ship instead? US navel divers on a civilian ship is the USA going to WW3 with Russia. They know the real story will come out, perhaps within a day of the incident. Could they have trained Norwegian divers to use US tech off a civilian ship, maybe, that is a lot of added complexity and Russia 100% knows the US did this already. This is about the real story being leaked, USA and Russi…

No, it's not a no brainer: it's US divers either way, according to Hersh. See? None of this makes sense.

Re: Blowing holes in Seymour Hersh’s pipe dream

#372

Post by mint2 » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 5:32 PM UTC

xyzelement wrote: post #193

mint2 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Whoever could possibly try to "penalize" Russia for contract violation, is currently already pretty much engaged in a hot war with it” So they’re at war with their only potential customers. Sounds like the pipeline has zero commercially value to Russia since it’s unlikely anyone would buy the gas. So there’s no monetary concern to stop Russia doing whatever with it.

Pipeline has zero current commercial value. It has potential non zero future commercial value. And there's no benefit to destroying it. Why would they have?

A. Yes there’s a slight chance that it has future commercial value decades in the future, but it seems unlikely.

B. Can you read Putin’s mind? Actually Invading Ukraine was a fantastically ill-thought endeavor, but that happened. Was Putin grossly misinformed and out of touch reality or what? But now Putin/Russia won’t do anything that certain hackernews commenters don’t think would make sense? That is an interesting take.

Also Why are commenters still saying there is no potential benefit to Russia destroying it? It’s already been pointed out that there are multiple ways it could help Russia. It’s pretty easy to come up with multiple speculative ways destroying it had chances of providing more value over the next decade than doing maintenance on an unusable pipeline.

Just look at how some accuse the USA of doing it while being unable to conceive that Russia could have done it. if Russia did it then that’s exactly what they wanted. Unfortunately that accusation is reserved mostly to internet pundits so that’s been a flop for Russia.

Everything is speculation at the moment. Which means whoever did it at least succeeded fantastically in that regards.

Re: Blowing holes in Seymour Hersh’s pipe dream

#373

Post by mullingitover » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 5:43 PM UTC

jrsj wrote: post #205

mullingitover wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is an asset they fully control. The idea that they damaged their own asset "to show the world they are serious" or whatever is about as likely as "to threaten Alice, Bob shot off his own foot." Is it possible? I guess so... but it doesn't make sense as the go-to explanation. I thought the Russia's problem was that they'd already withheld delivery of gas they were contractually obligated to deliver, and this give…

This just isn’t nearly as compelling as the U.S. wanting to blow it up to prevent Germany from even having the option of using it.

Germany already didn't have the option though - Russia had already halted delivery. That wasn't Germany's call.

Re: Blowing holes in Seymour Hersh’s pipe dream

#374

Post by tptacek » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 6:07 PM UTC

scythe wrote: post #173

tptacek wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the same analysis: it doesn't even make sense that they'd require an Alta-class ship from Norway's Navy in the first place; the ship was essentially just a diving platform, and civilian ships operate in those waters with far less need for cover. Moreover, the whole structure of the operation Hersh claims: EC-UBA divers planting C4 charges detonated by a sonobuoy dropped by a Norwegian P8, doesn't make se…

>other than that one random, implausibly-well-informed anonymous person told Hersh There is no reason to believe that Hersh is working off a single source. If he were, it would be extremely stupid, and certainly unbefitting a journalist with his level of experience, to admit it, since it would make it far easier to determine who the leaker was — it narrows the list of candidates dramatically. It seems like the whole…

Detection of what? It's not a secret that somebody blew up the pipeline. Do we have a clear theory of what exactly the conspirators were attempting to conceal?

Re: Blowing holes in Seymour Hersh’s pipe dream

#375

Post by caeril » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 6:28 PM UTC

Streisand Effect in full force.

The man who meticulously researched, blew open, and legitimized half a dozen "conspiracy theories" in his storied career is now a senile old man who can't wipe his own ass, let alone do properly sourced research, overnight.

Every lapdog of the establishment is, as they did before, working overtime to discredit Hersh.

Every article I see decrying Hersh, particularly from FVEY-associated authors, only works to bolster the credibility of the original claims. They want to hide it, as they always have, since the sixties.

Barbara would be proud.

Re: Blowing holes in Seymour Hersh’s pipe dream

#376

Post by miguelazo » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 6:53 PM UTC

Jerry2 wrote: post #329

IIAOPSW wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're response to the question of logical consistency in the Hersh story is "who cares about consistency, I don't like Biden or the US so it must be true, anyone who disagrees is 'heavily vested in an insane criminal cabal'". Why are you so heavily invested? Answer the question

These people are on record for threatening the pipeline. They had the motive and the means. So why should we disbelieve their threats? Sy Hersh is the most trusted living investigative reporter today. I'll take his word over some OSINTbro shill any day of the week. And to claim that Russians destroyed their own pipeline is ludicrous. Once they start cutting our undersea cables and destroying our pipelines, I guess th…

Thank you for calling out the OSINTbros! They're insufferable and until now, I didn't know what to call them. Much appreciated.

Re: Blowing holes in Seymour Hersh’s pipe dream

#377

Post by halothane » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 8:23 PM UTC

astrange wrote: post #300

halothane wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

A green account name accusing the #1 (#2?) poster on this site of being an op? Is this reverse psychology?

You must know about becoming a first time voter after being on the sidelines? Same here after seeing Seymour Hersch being denigrated and attacked just because some don't agree with his point of view, especially after he has done so much for our country, its ideals and founding principles. I'll take your comment at face value and assume you don't hate on first timers. Otherwise you would fall into the same category of an ad hominem.:)

Re: Blowing holes in Seymour Hersh’s pipe dream

#378

Post by miguelazo » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 8:25 PM UTC

spurgu wrote: post #273

glennvtx wrote: post #255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Biden is literally on video promising that these pipelines would be destroyed, so there is that.

Not sure you'd be downvoted for a clear and definite fact?

[flagged]

Re: Blowing holes in Seymour Hersh’s pipe dream

#379

Post by halothane » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 8:27 PM UTC

dang wrote: post #362

halothane wrote: post #276

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nice! Love how you threw in the age factor there Buster. Yep, Seymour sure got his basic facts wrong during the Vietnam War, Watergate scandal, Abu Ghraib and more. I'd rather have him report on our state of the world than Brown Moses's team of Tik Tok experts or for that matter Team Jorge, unless you are one of them?

Can you please not (a) post in the flamewar style to HN, or (b) use HN for political flamewar? You're breaking the site guidelines badly here. We don't need you to change your views but we do need you to present them thoughtfully and respectfully, if you want to participate here. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and taking the intended spirit of the site to heart, we'd b…

Got it. That's not the intent, but have to call out the comment preceding mine which is ad hominem and insulting individuals without providing any substance for discussion.

Re: Blowing holes in Seymour Hersh’s pipe dream

#380

Post by dang » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 8:44 PM UTC

mannerheim wrote: post #128

ad404b8a372f2b9 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When you qualify Hersh as one of journalism's least trustworthy figures, it's impossible to take the rest of your comment at face value.

[flagged]

Personal attacks and name-calling are not allowed here. We ban accounts that do that sort of thing, so please don't, regardless of how wrong someone is or you feel they are.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html