Blowing holes in Seymour Hersh’s pipe dream • Hacker News Board

Re: Blowing holes in Seymour Hersh’s pipe dream

#301

Post by rjzzleep » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 6:06 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #239

Jerry2 wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of getting lost in minutia, can you explain why Biden, Nuland, Blinken and the rest of the neocon and lib imperialist gang would go on record about getting rid of NS1 and NS2 and then deny they had anything to do with it?

It's not "minutia". These are the details of the story Hersh chose to tell. It's not a minor question! Implicating the Norwegian Navy drastically increases the number of people that need to keep this secret. Using a warship drastically increases the scrutiny applied to the ship.

I'm a bit confused, do you have some personal relationship to the author? Or why do you get personally offended when people question (not attack) the author of this particular substack?

NATO had plenty of big navy drills around the area last year. Who would complain about NATO ships in the area? Russia? Why do you even get hung up on that point?

https://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/news_196240.htm?selectedL...

Re: Blowing holes in Seymour Hersh’s pipe dream

#302

Post by astrange » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 6:08 AM UTC

mushbino wrote: post #245

dmix wrote: post #17

If someone was feeding Hersh false information why would they reference the Alta class? Assuming it was some Intel op or some insider, did they just google some Norwegian navy ships that could plausibly fit the picture? Or did Hersh draw that connection himself? Hersh has been criticized for listening to cranks. Maybe some Intel officer (or adjacent gov/military worker) heard some rumours internally but there was com…

If it were false, it would be Hersh's first false story. He broke My Lai and Abu Ghraib. He's one of the most accomplished journalists in history.

That was 20 years ago. Since then he's apparently gone nuts since he eg believes Opus Dei controls the US military.

Though before Abu Ghraib he also claimed the Chicago mob fixed JFK's presidential election.

Re: Blowing holes in Seymour Hersh’s pipe dream

#303

Post by astrange » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 6:11 AM UTC

kneel wrote: post #129

I'd take any reports done by a self described "OSINT Researcher" with a heavy grain of salt.

It's well known that amateur OSINT researchers are some of the most reliable people around these days. As long as they aren't Redditors anyway.

Re: Blowing holes in Seymour Hersh’s pipe dream

#304

Post by astrange » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 6:14 AM UTC

alienicecream wrote: post #66

tptacek wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we have zero information and zero clues about who did this and trying to reason axiomatically about it, as HN is wont to do, isn't going to get us any closer to the truth.

That's exactly what reasoning axiomatically does, it gets you closer to the truth. It gets you from "I don't know anything" to "these are the plausible theories". I wonder why you think that allowing people to speculate based on these "axioms" is so dangerous? If they're wrong, they're just wrong aren't they? As to clues, there are plenty. Biden proclaiming that he would put an end to Nord Stream 2 is a clue. That no…

Rationalist reasoning about things you don't actually know about in the real world not only leads you to guaranteed wrong conclusions, it makes you think you're right because you made up a bunch of math about it.

This is why people think computers are going to develop AGI and enslave them.

Re: Blowing holes in Seymour Hersh’s pipe dream

#305

Post by astrange » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 6:15 AM UTC

StanislavPetrov wrote: post #92

einpoklum wrote: post #79

> "and his recent factually incorrect takes on the Syria gas attacks and Skripal poisoning" I don't know of anything incorrect in Hersh's take on (one of) the Syria gas attacks: https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v35/n24/seymour-m.-hersh/who... and I haven't read what he wrote on the Skripal affair.

The CIA narrative on the "Syria gas attacks" have been roundly debunked by the meticulous reporting of Aaron Mate (and others). The even more absurd "Skripal poisoning" incident has completely fallen apart upon only the barest scrutiny. It is sad and disturbing these these completely debunked narratives are still being touted by people as credible. Anyone (rightfully) calling for skepticism and scrutiny into Hersch's…

Aaron Maté is a ridiculous tankie who's currently claiming the US is trying to coup Hungary.

(Why as a leftist he's supporting the current Hungary government is unclear, but being a tankie requires you to start with the US being bad and work the rest out from there.)

Re: Blowing holes in Seymour Hersh’s pipe dream

#306

Post by ROTMetro » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 6:22 AM UTC

spurgu wrote: post #286

mandevil wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I've argued before, the issue here is that invading Ukraine doesn't really make any sense from the Russian perspective. They've lost so much money in trade, their army is shattered, their soft-power is in shambles, and they've pissed off even the Russian speaking parts of Ukraine that used to view them as friends. This is why there was a lot of dissension in the West over a year ago about whether the Russians woul…

Ukraine had signed the Minsk agreements only to buy time to build their military to NATO standards. Petro Poroshenko and Angela Merkel have admitted as much. With the US promised them backing they believed that they could be victorious even if Russia intervened. Armed with this information they were planning and preparing to take back Donbass by force. OSCE data shows increased activity and casualties on the Donbass…

You make assertions to statements made by Merkel but give no links to back that up.

OSCE data shows that 21 people were killed the year before invasion, mostly from mines.

My friend that died fighting for Ukraine in this war called himself 'Russian from Ukraine' before the war, went to university in Moscow, spoke Russian, and loved Russia prior to the war and was helping this malinki chuvak learn Russian. He was sadly killed a few months ago but the ethnic Russian Ukrainians that I still know HATE Russia now.

Russia has lost how many working age males to the surrounding counties in order to avoid the draft? But Russia isn't losing much? How is that not losing much? The mayor of Moscow is on record as saying Moscow was losing 200,000 jobs from western companies leaving(2% of the population of Moscow).

This was the winter to impact Europe. By next winter Europe will have plenty of alternatives. Even with blowing up the pipeline and trying to create market uncertainty that would drive up prices to cause Europe pain, Europe survived this winter (the largest hurdle).

Re: Blowing holes in Seymour Hersh’s pipe dream

#307

Post by joshsyn » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 6:23 AM UTC

charintstr wrote: post #298

The amount of pro-Russia apologia on this thread is pretty incredible. There are a number of salient points raised in this article discussing how details of the original article are implausible. However instead of addressing any of these points or inconsistencies directly, people simply say this rebuttal is "non-credible." I had expected more from this readership.

[dead]

Re: Blowing holes in Seymour Hersh’s pipe dream

#308

Post by ROTMetro » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 6:24 AM UTC

kornhole wrote: post #199

mandevil wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I've argued before, the issue here is that invading Ukraine doesn't really make any sense from the Russian perspective. They've lost so much money in trade, their army is shattered, their soft-power is in shambles, and they've pissed off even the Russian speaking parts of Ukraine that used to view them as friends. This is why there was a lot of dissension in the West over a year ago about whether the Russians woul…

There is a lot missing from this account such as: The US promising not to expand NATO beyond Germany. The Maidan coup in 2014. The Minsk agreement where Kiev agreed to stop bombing the Donbas but has still killed over 14K people doing so. The Ruble is strong and Russia's GDP will grow more than the UK this year.

21 people were killed in the Donbas in the year prior to Russia starting a war of aggression, mostly by mines.

Re: Blowing holes in Seymour Hersh’s pipe dream

#309

Post by bhk » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 6:25 AM UTC

runnerup wrote: post #61

mach5 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

he did do fact checking, with people he had previously worked with at New Yorker https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/politik-gesellschaft/seymour...

They fact-checked "salinity-matched C4"? My god they're terrible.

Acoustic impedance of seawater varies with salinity.

Re: Blowing holes in Seymour Hersh’s pipe dream

#310

Post by miguelazo » Fri, Feb 17, 2023, 6:28 AM UTC

charintstr wrote: post #299

christkv wrote: post #96

One interesting thing about the Jens Stoltenberg. It’s Thorvald Stoltenberg, his father who was defense minister and foreign minister after 1979 as well as was a high level official in the Norwegian state and defense department during the last years of the Vietnam conflict. Confusion but basically father and son.

You would think that for releasing a major story like this that Hersh would be trying to get his details correct. Confusing father and son is not a negligible error.

https://www.patreon.com/posts/unlocked-young-78471711