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Blowing Holes in Seymour Hersh's Pipe Dream

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Re: Blowing Holes in Seymour Hersh's Pipe Dream

#241
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> anonymous officials. ... this is the standard for journalism on these topics Unfortunately, it's also standard for planted false stories. It's notable that Hersh won the Nobel prize for producing photographic evidence of war crimes. None of his anonymously sourced articles has ever been confirmed true

> None of his anonymously sourced articles has ever been confirmed true While not "confirmed true", I think this piece shows that later evidence strongly supported Hersh's anonymous claims in this case: https://www.rootclaim.com/analysis/Who-carried-out-the-chemi... It's an interesting style of analysis. You'll need to click on "Show more" below each section to see their actual evidence and reasoning.

I really hate this style of analysis. It's transparent, yes: it's a prior being updated by evidence to produce a posterior, and you see where the rabbit goes in the hat. But this just puts a sciencism gloss on what are basically qualitative arguments.

A short version of their argument is "You might think for any number of reasons that the Syrian government launched the missile, but other peoples calculations of the launch location were wrong and ours were right so it couldn't be the government." Their prior begins at 95-5 for the government doing it, then it becomes 69-31 for the government doing it when they show a video of an anti-government guerrilla wearing a chemical hazard suit, then it becomes 7-93 in favour of the opposition once they decide they know the launch site. The launch site evidence is supposed to mean the Syrian government's probability is divided by 3 and the opposition's probability is multiplied by 15. That's the whole argument, that's where the rabbit is in the hat. After that point, no other evidence can adjust anything.

Most of the other evidence is just conjecture: they assign a 90% confidence to the evidence point "No western countries shared their evidence that the Syrian government did it" and they feel this fact is enough evidence to half their confidence in the Syrian government doing it. As proof for this, they literally say "The US says they have signals intercepts saying the Syrian government did it, but what if they actually have signals intercepts from the Syrian government asking if they did it or maybe they did admit to doing it but they were lying" This is not evidence.

This really seems like crank people trying to apply a rational choice / scientific skeptic veneer to a process of qualitative reasoning. And frankly I flicked through another ten or fifteen pages on the blog and almost everything discussed was discussed in the exact manner LessWrong/Slate Star Codex commenters would, and many of the issues being discussed were the exact issues discussed on those sites.

(I have no prior at all on the Syrian gas attacks, as I don't pretend to know anything about Syria or chemical weapons)

Re: Blowing Holes in Seymour Hersh's Pipe Dream

#242
post #2

It does seem like what happened is that Hersh got a legitimate source (probably in the US or Norwegian intelligence community) who was willing to talk about an existing plan for this kind of operation, and then spun it into a story just declaring that it happened that way. In point of fact probably every major player in the region had a plan like this. Nord Stream 2 was a huge football for everyone with interest. We…

> Why blow up a gas line but not sent ATACMS? Because the strategic goal is is not to militarily defeat Russia, which would probably be impossible, but to drive a hard geopolitical wedge between the EU and the rising Russia-Iran-India-China Eurasian multipolar order, and thereby secure EU dependence on Washington (rather than losing it to the gravitational pull of Eurasia). A limited proxy war, and blowing up economi…

It's not clear to me why Iran is a part of this multipolar order. It's true that the U.S. has backed Saudi Arabia/GCC and more or less taken the Sunni side in the Sunni-Shi'a split, but why is Iran considered an independent world power in the multipolar world but Saudi is not? In the same way, Cuba and Yugoslavia were not powers in a multipolar world in the 1960s just because they stood against a U.S. The hegemony but were nevertheless not explicitly owned by the Soviet Union.

The U.S. definitely has an interest in an isolated and weak Russia, but the polarity of this situation is totally unclear. Isolating Russia has already empowered China. It may strengthen the EU and EU-central/eastern European ties, but it may also cause a further loss of influence in Africa and SE Asia for the west. It's definitely possible to make the math shake out for this to be strategically useful for the U.S., but I don't think it's as foregone a conclusion as you expect it is, and for that reason I don't see how this is any more likely an explanation than any contradicting explanation.

Re: Blowing Holes in Seymour Hersh's Pipe Dream

#243
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These errors largely sound like obfuscation... like a potentially true narrative with the names and places changed: - Instead of revealing the fishing vessel, he describes a vessel that it couldn't have been. - Giving the real timing would expose the vessel, so he gives timing that wouldn't have worked as a placeholder. - Too many people were involved, because only a subset were actually involved - or maybe even just…

Oh yeah, it's so important to not expose the vessel! Grasping for straws, uh?

Yeah, I’m suspecting a merchant vessel that frequently docks in Russia.

Re: Blowing Holes in Seymour Hersh's Pipe Dream

#244
post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (one of those pipes was suspiciously left undamaged). You do not offer any reason for Russia to blow up three of four pipelines just to leave around one.

Well if you want to consider motives, what I said makes a clear motive IF Russia did it, for them to leave one of the NS2 pipes untouched doesn't it. Because the history was of Russia trying to blackmail Germany and get Germany to turn on NS2. But I didn't claim Russia did it. You know you can suspect the US did it but that doesn't mean you need to promote fake made up stories that defy scrutiny to believe it. You ca…

> one of those pipes was suspiciously left undamaged

...

> But I didn't claim Russia did it.

Give me a break.

Anyway, it still doesn't make sense why Russia would blow up 3/4th its capacity to bluff the Germans into using 1/4th the capacity. This a mind boggling silly path in the "search for the actual truth".

Re: Blowing Holes in Seymour Hersh's Pipe Dream

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why blow up a gas line but not sent ATACMS? Because the strategic goal is is not to militarily defeat Russia, which would probably be impossible, but to drive a hard geopolitical wedge between the EU and the rising Russia-Iran-India-China Eurasian multipolar order, and thereby secure EU dependence on Washington (rather than losing it to the gravitational pull of Eurasia). A limited proxy war, and blowing up economi…

It's not clear to me why Iran is a part of this multipolar order. It's true that the U.S. has backed Saudi Arabia/GCC and more or less taken the Sunni side in the Sunni-Shi'a split, but why is Iran considered an independent world power in the multipolar world but Saudi is not? In the same way, Cuba and Yugoslavia were not powers in a multipolar world in the 1960s just because they stood against a U.S. The hegemony bu…

Washington was on track to lose ALL of Eurasia to the inevitable force of China-Russia-led integration. So they opted to carve out the EU.

Re: Blowing Holes in Seymour Hersh's Pipe Dream

#246
I agree with his assessment that Hersh's story is so detailed and that it's a red flag. It was what I felt when reading it. Feeling something doesn't make it true of course.

But ironically, I think there's quite a bit of circumstantial evidence to make at least the jist of Hersh's story correct. The big thing for me is the near complete media silence. You'd think blowing up a huge piece of civilian infrastructure would stir up a bigger frenzy, but no. If we really did not know and it was plausibly Russia, it would get talked about a lot more.

Re: Blowing Holes in Seymour Hersh's Pipe Dream

#248
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, but I would take Ukraine off the list, although they had a strong motive. Ukraine's strategic cornerstone is international relations, without which they cannot win the war. Ukraine would never risk upsetting Germany, the EU's biggest economy, with such a drastic operation.

Also, how would Ukraine pull off such a mission in a sea it has no access to?

A boat, some underwater explosive charges, underwater ROVs, and a team to operate all the above seems likely to be well within Ukraine's capabilities.

The first underwater ROV I found via googling is $10K: https://www.deeptrekker.com/shop/products/dtg3#

It seems like something within the technical capabilities and resources of any functioning non-microstate.

Re: Blowing Holes in Seymour Hersh's Pipe Dream

#249

While the Seymour Hersh story seems unbelievable to me, so does the initial explanation that was being thrown around, that Russia did this as sabotage, e.g., https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/09/28/nord-stream-... . The utter stupidity of that idea is along the sames lines as rhetoric, also present in OP, that Russia "weaponized" its gas pipelines. (To use that language, nearly anything can be a "weapon.") I'…

Somebody destroyed them and there is a limited nber of candidates who would have both the motive and means to do so.

Re: Blowing Holes in Seymour Hersh's Pipe Dream

#250
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The idea that Russia would use it as a reminder that they could sabotage other pipelines doesn’t seem so far-fetched.

Can you name a single other instance in history where a country at war significantly damaged its ability to raise money for the war to “send a message”? What exactly is the message? The US didn’t think Russia had a submersible and some C4 and now they do?

That they could destroy other pipelines like those coming from Norway.
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