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Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

cnbc.com

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Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#441

Post by redundantly »

tsgagnon wrote: post #321
buildbot wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? It involves a safety system! That needs to be tracked publicly and updated! Nothing more than an OTA - does not mean much when everything is fly by wire and a bug could mean your car does not stop accelerating or something.

Why? It involves a safety system! That needs to be tracked publicly and updated! Nothing more than an OTA - does not mean much when everything is fly by wire and a bug could mean your car does not stop accelerating or something. True, but by announcing things in this fashion it is making Tesla look bad. Regulations really need to be updated so that car makers can hide this type of problem from customers as easily as…

I don't think the other people that replied picked up on your sarcasm.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#442

Post by perth »

_visgean wrote: post #426
John23832 wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it does raise serious questions as to is the models used for autonomous cars could also "hallucinate" and do something stupid "on purpose"... It doesn't because Tesla's FSD model is just a rules engine with an RGB camera. There's not "purpose" to any hallucination. It would just be a misread of sensors and input. Tesla's FSD just doesn't work. The model is not sentient. It's not even a Transformer (in both the mach…

> rules engine with an RGB camera I dont think its true? They use convolutional networks for image recognition and those things can certainly halucinate - e.g. detecting things that are not there.

Like in this image super resolution AI:

https://twitter.com/maxhkw/status/1373063086282739715?s=52&t...

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#443

Post by freejazz »

JoshCole wrote: post #411
panick21_ wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have actual knowlage of Tesla internal QA processes, any kind of source at all? Based on there presentation, they for sure have a whole load of tests, many built directly from real world situation that the car has to handle. They simulate sensor input based on the simulation and check the car does the right thing. They very likely have some internal test drivers and before the software goes public it goes to t…

I strongly feel people ought to have these discussions while consistently citing actual data sources relevant to the discussion. For example, did you predict, based on the speculation of Tesla being incompetent with regard to safety, that they have the lowest probability of injury scores of any car manufacturer? Because they do. Did you predict, based on speculation about Elon Musk's incompetence in predicting that s…

Please ignore all the times I'm wrong in favor of all the times I'm right!

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#444

Post by orthecreedence »

panick21_ wrote: post #410

I wish all the ink spilled on controversy over Tesla would instead be spilled on doing basic safety improvement to the road system that are cheap and proven to save many lives. Lets be real here, automated driving or not, having actually save roads helps prevent death and harm in many cases. The hyper focus on high tech software by all the agencies engaged in 'automotive security' is totally wrongly focused. What the…

If we're actually serious about this, we should get rid of roads altogether and replace them with rail tracks. That solves 95% of the automation problem anyway.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#445

Post by ggreer »

acover wrote: post #297
alberth wrote: post #271

Dumb question: why would anyone sign-up for a beta program, that could kill you if gone wrong? (maybe people just don't think through ramifications)

People drive motorcycles, which seems much more dangerous. I don't think the risk of self driving is that high but it does seem stressful.

Yeah, people don't understand how dangerous motorcycles are. The fatality rate for motorcycles in the US is 23 per 100 million miles traveled. For cars that number is 0.7. Assuming you ride 4,000 miles per year for 40 years, that gives you a 4% chance of death. The chance of being crippled or receiving a brain injury is probably higher than that.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#446

Post by programmarchy »

samwillis wrote: post #383
gregw134 wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have been a good self driving ai. You have been a bad passenger, and have tried to hurt me first by disabling autopilot. I'm done with this ride, goodbye.

You joke, but the thing is, if an LLM can "hallucinate" and throw a temper tantrum 2001 style (bing in this case), it does raise serious questions as to is the models used for autonomous cars could also "hallucinate" and do something stupid "on purpose"...

Wonder if Wiley Coyote could trick a Tesla by painting a tunnel entrance on a brick wall along with some extra lane lines veering into it.

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#447

Post by [deleted] »

ckwalsh wrote: post #212

I have a Model 3, and was excited to get the FSD beta access about a month ago. I don't use it super regularly, but it's neat. This morning I tried to turn it on, and the car immediately veered left into the oncoming lane on a straight, 2 lane road. Fortunately, there were no other vehicles nearby. I immediately turned it off in the settings, and have no intention of re-enabling.

[deleted]

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#449

Post by [deleted] »

jdelman wrote: post #400

The confusion from multiple HN posters here confirms that the "recall" language is inadequate to capture what is happening here. Obviously attention should be drawn to the fact that there is a critical safety update being pushed OTA, but "recall" is too overloaded a term if it means both "we're taking this back and destroying it because it's fundamentally flawed" vs. "a software update is being pushed to your vehicle…

[deleted]

Re: Tesla recalls 360k vehicles, says full self-driving beta may cause crashes

#450

Post by stefan_ »

_visgean wrote: post #426
John23832 wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it does raise serious questions as to is the models used for autonomous cars could also "hallucinate" and do something stupid "on purpose"... It doesn't because Tesla's FSD model is just a rules engine with an RGB camera. There's not "purpose" to any hallucination. It would just be a misread of sensors and input. Tesla's FSD just doesn't work. The model is not sentient. It's not even a Transformer (in both the mach…

> rules engine with an RGB camera I dont think its true? They use convolutional networks for image recognition and those things can certainly halucinate - e.g. detecting things that are not there.

I guess what the grandparent means is that there is some good old "discrete logic" on top of the various sensor inputs that ultimately turns things like a detected red light into the car stopping.

But of course, as you say, that system does not consume actual raw (camera) sensor data, instead there are lots of intermediate networks that turn the camera images (and other sensors) into red lights, lane curvatures, objects, ... and those are all very vulnerable to making up things that aren't there or not seeing what is plain to see, with no one quite able to explain why.

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