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Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectual society

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Re: Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectual society

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some speech suppresses the speech of others Isn't this exactly what you're trying to do here? > Free speech isn't just about saying anything you want, it's also about maximizing the number of voices at the table Free speech is "about" whatever is in the first amendment > it's also about maximizing the number of voices at the table Ahh yes, because the people who try to redefine "free speech" like what you're doing…

Free speech is "about" whatever is in the first amendment Lol, USAian moment, how about the other 7.7 billion of us?

I hope people elsewhere don't have the same bullshit pseudo debates we have in usa...

Re: Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectual society

#212
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That isn't my recollection at all, can you provide an example of a mainstream publication or politician attaching "he shouldn't be so provactive" to their support. And if you can't, why would you go on believing it?

https://cdn.theatlantic.com/media/archives/1994/03/273-3/132... "Salman Rushdie’s rights as an author are absolute and ought to be inalienable. A free society does not ban books. . . . But it is preposterous to pretend that the first principle governing the publication of Satanic Verses is the last word on the subject. . . . Mr Rushdie is entitled to abuse the religion in which he was reared and must be protected aga…

Yanking a couple of outlier authors and commentators out as representatives of common opinion is disingenuous as hell.

Society-wide we've also got a huge problem with victim-blaming when it comes to crime, and we are only just starting to make in-roads on it. We've just done another round on this with "somehow NATO is causing Russia to invade Ukraine in a campaign of murder, rape and destruction".

Re: Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectual society

#213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the author was implying damage, he did an incredibly poor job at conveying that. He said "hurt" not "damage."

You're going to have a frustrating time if you use that kind of pedantry to build a bad-faith interpretation of the proposed argument. "Joey got hurt in the boxing match" does not generally mean he was offended by the color of his opponent's shorts, and when someone talks about a punch in the face hurting someone they're using the broadest sense of the word 'hurt,' which is commonly accepted to encompass all of emoti…

Language is always evolving, and words do not always need to be tethered to their denotative meaning for us to understand what people mean.

Re: Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectual society

#215

The thing is, people on the far left and the far right DON’T want a liberal society. They want authoritarianism. They want control to suppress their adversaries.

The idea that we can have value-free laws instituted by impartial institutions is a fantasy. By its very nature politics is about rewarding friends and punishing enemies.

If the state - any state - regards you as deplorable, then it is totally irrelevant that some piece of paper somewhere might claim you are entitled to some rights. In practice this won't matter. The state will crush you, and the mob will cheer.

Re: Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectual society

#216
post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet people don't get how narrow the Brandenburg test is: https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/brandenburg_test > The test determined that the government may prohibit speech advocating the use of force or crime if the speech satisfies both elements of the two-part test: > The speech is “directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action,” > AND > The speech is “likely to incite or produce such action.” [snip] >…

Yep. "Kill x people" is fine and protected. "Kill x people at y date at z mall" is not.

Does that pass the "likely to produce" requirement?

Re: Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectual society

#217
post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is effectively impossible to reason people out of positions they have not reasoned themselves into. The market place of idea struggles in my close friend group where we have sort of a tradition to do these kind of debates, despite us being very close since almost a decade, and educated above our national average. It's a nice enough idea, but i dont see how to make it work in a space where money amplifies speech, a…

> It is effectively impossible to reason people out of positions they have not reasoned themselves into. Some people cannot be trusted with certain ideas so a more superior individual must control what they can hear. Do you realize how patronizing and condescending you sound about your friends by the way when you clearly imply your ideas are well reasoned and factual and theirs are the result of psychology manipulati…

But it is true, in fact that is part of the core ideas of representative democracy, and also the basic principle behind the monopoly of violence that any democratic state has to have

Some people cannot be trusted with certains ideas so a more superior indivdual or organisation must control what they can do

Or must we abandon policing since we can all exchange on the marketplace of ideas ?

My idea is since i control 40 gunmans and you control 0, you owe me money despite nothing having ever happened between us. No violence was ever implied.

Not saying that speech = action, but i cannot see how you can argue for police to exist but speech to be free as speech in itself must lead to actions, or why else would we speak in public ?

Re: Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectual society

#218

When a message board or user is kicked off a platform, it's never for "saying the wrong thing" or "political correctness". It's generally because they organized targeted campaigns of harassment, doxxing, swatting, and other kinds of behavior that violated the terms of service. Take this example: https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/internet/cloudflare-kiwi-farms-... "At least three people have died by suicide after becoming…

> When we talk about violent forms of speech, this is what we mean. Actual crimes.

If we're talking about actual crimes getting prosecuted, then what's the issue here? All I see is the law doing it's job

Somebody got swatted. Ok. We're talking about speech here, not swatting

Re: Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectual society

#219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, "cancel culture" doesn't seem like a problem to me. It's a pretty reasonable and sensible response by people who disagree with opinions shared by individuals with large platforms taking liberties to hurt people. Would you feel differently if it wasn't about canceling those who "hurt people" (where we again would need a definition of what is violent speech that hurts)? Like, if some group went out to ca…

For the sake of this discussion, I'll define "cancel" as in "cancel culture". It would be to "boycott their activity, discourage others patronizing them, and prominently proclaim you do not agree with them or want to support them financially or the growth of their platform, with the aim of aligning collective action to reduce their influence". > Like, if some group went out to cancel people because of their skin colo…

> This flavor of "cancel culture" transcends my definition in a lot of ways (often involving physical violence, unjust law enforcement incarceration, employment discrimination and more).

Employment discrimination aside (you'll find that with the tolerated kind of canceling, too, even though the employers may not do it voluntarily, but catering to mob pressure, but then again, aren't they often in racist settings as well?), what if they don't include physical violence or state action? Would you find it okay if some group pressures vendors, customers, social clubs etc to cancel someone because of the color of their skin?

I'm not looking for a "gotcha" or something, and I included religion and political persuasion in that list intentionally. You can't change your skin color or sexual orientation, and we're kind of saying that you can't change your religion (though we agree that you totally can, apostasy is both normal and accepted and not a crime), but we kind of say that you can with your politics (otherwise it would be protected and you couldn't discriminate against someone based on it).

The problem I see with tolerating the common cancel culture is that it's often as arbitrary as those motivated by racism etc because it depends on exactly what the article was arguing: whether some speech is violent, and then additionally how violent it is (e.g. bad enough to warrant aggressive action).

Racists actually believe that their targets are unworthy and bad and deserving of their hatred and persecution. Some fringe groups believe that JK Rowling is leading a genocide campaign against trans youth in the UK and would love to cancel her because of it (I don't think there's a chance of success, but that's besides the point for whether we'd tolerate the attempt). I find both beliefs absurd, yet I understood you'd find cancelling because of the latter one reasonable, so I wonder whether you feel the same about the former or why you'd see that differently. And if that's too extreme, consider cancellation because of politics.

Re: Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectual society

#220

I think this article comes very close to saying "don't let words affect you", which is fundamentally impossible to ask anyone to do and taken to it's logical conclusion I should also not absorb anything in the article. I also think this article also ignores the fact that hateful people often use the language of free speech to justify their own behavior and to punish their critics. Everyday on the internet I see trans…

>If you make declarative statements that villainize minority groups, you make others fear for their safety and it silences voices. That is a form of "violent speech",

Not in the United States.

Matal v Tam

>>Speech that demeans on the basis of race, ethnicity, gender, religion, age, disability, or any other similar ground is hateful; but the proudest boast of our free speech jurisprudence is that we protect the freedom to express "the thought that we hate."

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remember, at one point it was considered 'harmful' be a majority whites for us browns/blacks to express our civil rights. Just because a majority goes "this is bad" doesn't mean it necessarily is.

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