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Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectual society

bigthink.com

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Re: Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectual society

#141

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> For example, "cancel culture" doesn't seem like a problem to me. It's a pretty reasonable and sensible response by people who disagree with opinions shared by individuals with large platforms taking liberties to hurt people. Would you feel differently if it wasn't about canceling those who "hurt people" (where we again would need a definition of what is violent speech that hurts)? Like, if some group went out to ca…

For the sake of this discussion, I'll define "cancel" as in "cancel culture". It would be to "boycott their activity, discourage others patronizing them, and prominently proclaim you do not agree with them or want to support them financially or the growth of their platform, with the aim of aligning collective action to reduce their influence".

> Like, if some group went out to cancel people because of their skin color

Are you, by any chance, referring to racism? This flavor of "cancel culture" transcends my definition in a lot of ways (often involving physical violence, unjust law enforcement incarceration, employment discrimination and more).

Also it is as old as modern global civilization, far predating the modern discourse about free speech, and yes, I dislike it. And so we as a society exert some amount of opposing force in response again, by "canceling" the racists in turn. This feedback loop continues for generations, and we slowly (hopefully) trend towards a less racist society.

So how do I feel about it? I dislike racism, but it exists today as part of an ecosystem of forces that seems reasonable to me.

Re: Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectual society

#142
The very first example given, of Rushdie having a fatwa against him, is framed as an example of trying to answer "Why should we defend his writing?" And the general conclusion is that we owe nothing to the "injured" party (in this case, Muslim clerics).

But the Muslim clerics issued their own violent speech. Their speech could have led to the assassination of a human being. Does that speech owe anything to the injured (read: dead) party? Should we allow speech to incite people to kill, "because intellectual liberalism?"

The answer, enshrined into law in most nations, is: no. We don't let you get away with killing people by incitement of violence. Your speech has consequences, and in many cases, you will be held accountable; if not by the law, then by vigilante justice. (This isn't an argument, it's a fact proved by the opposing argument)

You can choose to make the distinction that if you don't see physical harm, that that's not real harm, and thus, doesn't matter. But certain speech can in fact cause physical harm. The consequences of certain speech, by certain people, in certain contexts, can be debilitating, physically painful, nauseating, and drive people insane, even to suicide. In many cases it simply isn't a choice; your body just reacts to stimuli.

The simplest example is kids who kill themselves from incessant traumatic bullying. Even if you think those kids should "toughen up" and "just deal with it", that's not how the brain works. Some people in society are more vulnerable to suggestion and more likely to self-harm than others, and a non-stop barrage of hate and intimidation puts them in a traumatic state. The feeling of anguish is so much they commit suicide to stop the pain. Speech does do real harm, both directly and indirectly.

So, where does that leave us? Arguing over to what degree "verbal harm" counts as "real harm"? Waiting for someone to die, then deciding who, if anyone, gets the blame? This is a pointless morass, because the whole problem can be avoided by just not fucking with people intentionally. Just like with other crimes, sometimes people do harm by accident, and we deal with that in many ways. But when people do harm intentionally, that's a much more serious matter.

Thus we don't need this pointless philosophical diatribe to justify our ability to cause harm at will. If you're going to be a dick, then be a dick. But don't pretend you're doing it to defend some high-minded ideal. You're doing it because you're a dick, and there is no defense for that.

Re: Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectual society

#143
I am not a liberal. Many people are not. The paradox of tolerance is the easy counterarguement to this.

If you choose to never do anything in response to the things people say that's your perogative, I on the other hand can listen just fine to other people and my response to the things they say might be to tell them to stop saying it. "I don't believe you should be allowed to say this without consequence" is also a thing one can say.

Re: Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectual society

#144
I think this article comes very close to saying "don't let words affect you", which is fundamentally impossible to ask anyone to do and taken to it's logical conclusion I should also not absorb anything in the article. I also think this article also ignores the fact that hateful people often use the language of free speech to justify their own behavior and to punish their critics.

Everyday on the internet I see trans people threatened, disrespected, or legislated out of existence... then the ensuing backlash in which people try to reassert the rights of trans people... and then the backlash to the backlash is always "these woke libs trying to cancel us are the real n@zis". It's exhausting. Infuriating.

Some speech suppresses the speech of others. And some people don't want to be taught that they are hateful. If you make declarative statements that villainize minority groups, you make others fear for their safety and it silences voices. That is a form of "violent speech", though that term sucks. Free speech isn't just about saying anything you want, it's also about maximizing the number of voices at the table, and to do that you can't just let people get away with saying vile shit.

Re: Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectual society

#145

On the other hand, you can't have your liberal, intellectual society if you allow people to go around making credible threats of violence, which are "just speech" if you subscribe to the speech-is-speech, violence-is-violence approach. If you have to wait until the threat is realized, then any group capable of having members take the punishment for individual acts of violence can grant credibility to making threats t…

I didn't think that credible threats of violence or harassment were protected yet they've become almost normalized.

Re: Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectual society

#146

I think this article makes a key mistake that I see almost all commentators make of visions of free speech less radical than, say, the first amendment: They consider only the direct effects of speech on those who hear it. If you accept this, it's very easy to(correctly) respond that it's not the state's job to police mere offense, no matter how grave it may be. Some people who try to make criticisms of a radical free…

> but at the same time, it's undeniable that a lot of money and attention is flowing to ever-bolder provocateurs whose only possible goal is to escalate existing tensions and iniquities to violence in service of their political aims. Then you should defeat them in the marketplace of ideas and be able to counter their facillous words. To suggest otherwise is to stand in a position where you claim that some people are…

The marketplace of ideas is a completely made up thing to justify a stance of political non-action against real harms. People who are for example planning a mass shooting against a demonized minority are not participating in such a market, to the extent it exists at all.

Re: Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectual society

#147
post #9

Lawyer here, and this definitely strikes me as one of a surprising number topics in which, the law has for some time, already a very effective and useful way to get at this concept. Sure, speech can be harmful and hurtful, to the point that someone should get punished for it. But the law has generally done very good job of reminding us that this tends to be a VERY NARROW possibility, i.e. the harm has to be very spec…

150 dB speech could melt someone’s face.

Did you see the face before? Could it be self defense?

Re: Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectual society

#148
post #134

If we want a "liberal, intellectual society" we absolutely have to consider some speech "violence." To use one current example: The people pushing the idea of trans people as "groomers" is violence. It is not an intellectual debate, it's not necessary to entertain in order to preserve free thought, etc. The goal of that speech is to other trans people and it endangers them. Tolerance of that kind of speech ensures th…

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Re: Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectual society

#149
post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there is a group that is likely to be violent at that sort of provocation, you very much want to provoke them so they can be found out and somehow extinguished.

You can't extinguish an ideology, and someone who has been murdered is already murdered even if you do. By your insane logic, we should put kids out on the street by themselves to catch child predators. Sometimes the safety of the threatened party is more important than finding out who wants to harm them.

Yes you can, that requires some balls (such as not allowing fucking Hizb ut-Tahrir run schools). You'd think it violates the free speech principle, but smart people have that covered by the paradox of tolerance.

Also we put fake kids online and young-looking cops to lure predators all the time for that exact reason.

As long as there are people wishing to "behead those who offend Muhammad", there should be an offensive Muhammad cartoon on every street light.

Re: Speech is violence? Not if we want a liberal, intellectual society

#150

People who equate speech with violence have generally never known physical violence. I've always held that position firmly. The trouble is, people are turning out to be a lot more programmable than I thought they (we) were. You could almost say that we're becoming more like machines at the same time that machines are becoming more like us. To the extent that's true, the part of the old saying that goes "... but words…

I dunno if I agree with you overall, but getting punched in the face in the street is wildly different from someone calling you a bad name on the Internet, so on that point I entirely agree.

Getting punched in the face is primal, it gets into that part of your brain that we’re all wisely told to suppress, the animalistic nature of us upright apes.

It’s… well, nobody has ever said anything to me online that has caused me to feel even a fraction of what I’ve felt getting punched in the face.

I don’t know how or even if that contributes to the conversation, but I think it’s worth saying.

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