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Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

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Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#361

Post by Jcowell »

hammock wrote: post #341
AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #216

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Private school teachers get paid less than public but produce better outcomes. I'd like a citation for that. I can't help but imagine that private schools game the numbers, because when I worked for a school district that's what I saw: private schools can easily get rid of underperforming students and pretty much never take any with disabilities.

The most recent NAEP data shows what other research has found: Private school students score better in almost all subjects. https://www.nationsreportcard.gov/dashboards/schools_dashboa... On college entry tests such as the SAT, NAIS found that students in private schools consistently out-performed their public school peers in all subject areas. https://www.nais.org/magazine/independent-school/spring-2016...

I don’t doubt that private schools teacher have students that score better than public school students (we can argue the weight of all the factors later) and I don’t think GP is doubting that.

His doubt is that private teachers that are paid less than public school teachers provide better results. To prove the original assertion you need to include the income levels of these private school teachers and graph them against the performance and income level of the public school teachers.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#362

Post by threatofrain »

HEmanZ wrote: post #128

This is loosely related, but every time I think of public school teacher salaries my mind goes to the public school teachers I know. As a group they are… exceptionally ungifted. As just one example, I lived with two middle school teachers in Texas for a few years. They probably couldn’t pass the grade they were teaching. I have never met two professionals with so many credentials (MS in Education) and so little sense…

There are some disciplines in teaching which are easier to improve than others. There are some local Bay Area schools with an excellent standard for performance, with a near-majority of students in the fastest math track and with about half the math faculty as Calculus teachers.

I can't imagine any teacher who enjoys math who'd want to join a school district where the kids don't like learning and where the teacher has to basically be a second parent. A higher salary wouldn't fix that specific problem.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#363

Post by deeg »

Tangential to the main topic: I live in Boston which has a reputation for having lousy public schools. Is there any major city (for whatever definition of major you want) that is considered to have a good public school system? If so, what do they do right?

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#364

Post by RajT88 »

toast0 wrote: post #255
RajT88 wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Impact is huge, but they don't generate revenue for the organization which pays them. Therefore - their pay is a function of the budget that is available. Public school budgets are set of course by property taxes. If you teach in a rich district, you get paid more. If you teach in a poor district, you get paid less. The way public schools are funded helps keep the rich rich, and the poor poor. Unfortunately, the poli…

> Public school budgets are set of course by property taxes. If you teach in a rich district, you get paid more. If you teach in a poor district, you get paid less. The way public schools are funded helps keep the rich rich, and the poor poor. That depends on the state. In California, most school districts have their budgets set by the state funding formula which provides state funding above the local property tax re…

I wasn't aware of this funding system, so I had to look it up. The (quite prolific) literature suggest that the funding system was severely limited in 1978 by Prop 13.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#365

Post by indymike »

kennywinker wrote: post #359
indymike wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

12-13 years. They work.

Uh-huh. 13 years doesn't make me feel even a little confidant you've proven they work. The arc of social changes are long.

The biggest risk is the status quo - kids forced to spend 13 years in failing schools is guaranteed to get the same results.

Vouchers are generally used at existing private and parochial schools, who do meet state education standards, and frankly, usually vastly outperform public schools on education outcomes... and in many cases offer opportunities outside the classroom that public schools can't really match (i.e. many elementary schools in Indiana don't offer arts, sports, scouting and other clubs where the private/parochial schools do) Most often those schools have been outperforming the local public schools for decades. It's really low risk and has been nothing but wonderful for the kids.

The charter schools are much more risky - they are much more like business startups, and many fail. But, again the worse risk of all is entrusting thousands of kids for 13 years to failing education systems, and that is the alternative.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#366

Post by indymike »

teucris wrote: post #289
indymike wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The means test was added to Indiana's voucher program to get it passed, and it was a good thing. I put a lot of time in doing grass-roots work to get it passed, and honestly it has been great for kids, teachers (unions are good, but having employers compete for you is even better)... the only people it's been bad for are professional public school administrators and construction companies that sell school districts n…

I’m with you on this generally, and I’m glad Indiana included a means test. But I’m not sold that a shift to voucher systems more broadly will include means tests.

> But I’m not sold that a shift to voucher systems more broadly will include means tests.

In many US states this will have to happen.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#367

Post by friend_and_foe »

beej71 wrote: post #360
friend_and_foe wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm perfectly happy with a teacher making 60k provided that they're teaching my kid well. I'm not happy with giving them a raise if they're not, and "their lives could be easier so we should do it anyway" is not a compelling argument. In the rest of the professional world we have to earn our salaries.

What if underperforming teachers were fired and replaced with high-performing teachers? This is really what needs to happen, but... It's way harder to find high-performing teachers when you lowball salaries. It's actually way harder to find _any_ teachers when you do that. So if you're not willing to raise pay, you'll take what you get and you'll like it. > In the rest of the professional world we have to earn our sa…

Absolutely if underperforming teachers were all fired, the bar was raised along with pay I'd be happy.

Now, that's hard and I get that, just deciding how to measure teacher performance is difficult, but if it can be done it should be done.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#368

Post by laverya »

WaitWaitWha wrote: post #52

Education expenditures compares the public expenditure on education as a percent of GDP. https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/education-expen... Education Expenditures by Country https://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/indicator/cmd Government expenditure on education, total (% of GDP) https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SE.XPD.TOTL.GD.ZS

> Education expenditures compares the public expenditure on education as a percent of GDP. https://www.cia.gov/the-world-factbook/field/education-expen...

I think this only counts federal spending - state and local spending total to ~3.5% of US GDP.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#369

Post by jelliclesfarm »

sokoloff wrote: post #220
HEmanZ wrote: post #128

This is loosely related, but every time I think of public school teacher salaries my mind goes to the public school teachers I know. As a group they are… exceptionally ungifted. As just one example, I lived with two middle school teachers in Texas for a few years. They probably couldn’t pass the grade they were teaching. I have never met two professionals with so many credentials (MS in Education) and so little sense…

Both of my parents were math teachers, so I got to experience growing up around a lot of teachers and hearing their compliments and complaints about their peers. There are about 4 million K-12 teachers in the US; it's one of the most common professions and isn't immune to having the resulting distribution of talent. My brother had a high-school math teacher who could only explain "the reason we say the square root of…

I went to a private school in India where they only admitted students from families where there was at least one parent who had a graduate degree and knew English. If there weren’t any family who could assist the child, fees for mandatory remedial after school tutoring classes was included. There were programs for those who couldn’t afford the fees. One of my classmates had both parents who were mute+hearing impaired and he got all the after hours assistance.

I grew up in a large multi generational family where all the cousins grew up together. My uncle took care of math/physics/chemistry. My aunt was in charge of English/reading and one of our morning rituals was when we’d sit around her and she’d read out from the newspaper. My grandfather took care of evening sports, chess and history/geography. My mother liked languages and taught us how to read and write in non English languages by reading from vernaculars. Also creative writing. There were 3-5 of us at any given time. Sometimes our friends and neighbors’ kids also joined us. Our hired help/maid had two kids and her daughter joined us for a while. I cannot imagine going to school in the United States and utterly enjoying every single day of school life.

I guess my point is that schools are not baby sitting facilities funded by tax payers. Without parent involvement and encouragement, there cannot be a full and rounded educational experience. It blows my mind that in America, public schools are literally raising the kids. I have seen entire generations being raised by the state and that’s not necessarily a good thing.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#370

Post by paulryanrogers »

giardini wrote: post #282
paulryanrogers wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible there is more than one problem. And starving teachers is unlikely to improve any of them.

$60K is hardly starvation wages!

With a family of four in the city it's far from a life of luxury.
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