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Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

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Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#331

Post by yakireev »

friend_and_foe wrote: post #296
megabless123 wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It hasn't solved Chicago Public Schools' problems. sure but it probably has solved many financial problems for Chicago teachers, which is a good enough reason to implement a tool like this.

No it's not. A teacher is supposed to teach. We want to pay them more because they keep saying that if we do they'll teach better. We don't owe them money simply because they exist.

> We want to pay them more because they keep saying that if we do they'll teach better.

Given a choice, would you prefer the teacher of your kid paid 30k or 60k? I'd prefer the second option even if it would be the same person teaching, because do you really want your kids to be raised by people in dire financial situation?

A prospect of smarter folks becoming teachers (or staying in the field if they're there already) is a nice bonus.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#332

Post by ticviking »

kube-system wrote: post #213
hammock wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean?

2/3 of private schools are religious. And many private schools were literally founded as a response to brown vs board. Parents are not choosing schools based on academic success alone. An extremely significant part of how parents choose schools is based on the social groups they want their kids associating with. 99% of the academic success of private schools is attributable to their ability to exclude poorly performi…

No they pay hundreds of thousands of dollars so they don't have to deal with the school refusing to take action on bullying or disruptive behavior.

If schools are unwilling or unable to provide a stable learning environment then parents move on. There has been a lot of ink spilled on exactly why this is, including the racial and religious issues you allude to, but the brute fact is that in many communities families flee or switch to religious school because their children suffer violence at the hands of their fellow students.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#333

Post by ASalazarMX »

HEmanZ wrote: post #128

This is loosely related, but every time I think of public school teacher salaries my mind goes to the public school teachers I know. As a group they are… exceptionally ungifted. As just one example, I lived with two middle school teachers in Texas for a few years. They probably couldn’t pass the grade they were teaching. I have never met two professionals with so many credentials (MS in Education) and so little sense…

There are three teachers in my family, there are many more in my extended family. I cannot deny that teaching attracts a weird bunch, but the environment is much more to blame.

A minority of those teachers I know are dedicated, hard working, even to their own detriment; they love imparting knowledge.

Others are just following the study plan year after year, not really invested in a low-paying job, maybe they enjoy teaching but don't feel like doing an extra effort for a meager pay. They'd be out there looking for a better job if teaching wasn't so easy.

The rest are trying to do as little work as possible, and being unethical is not out of the question. They're actually harmful to their students.

In my country, teachers have unions, and those unions have enough clout to promote vices like selling/bequeathing of a job when you retire, qualifications notwithstanding; rejection of continual education for teachers, etc. Their unions are big enough to influence elections, and they use that influence to pressure/support politicians.

I guess what I'm saying is that everyone deserves a decent salary, but simply increasing a salary won't solve all the other grave issues with education.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#334

Post by tsgagnon »

HEmanZ wrote: post #308
tsgagnon wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know a few people who are teachers, or related fields like librarians, and I would say they all are smart, hard working and care quite a bit about their students. They are all underpaid and reaching the point of burnout of the entire system and they are only in their 30's. I'm honestly concerned that we'll see education in the US quite literally falling apart as people willing to work in education effectively evapo…

(Totally unrelated to topic at hand) Do you consider librarians in the same category as teachers? They seem like completely different things to me. Like, I don’t really care if my local librarian thinks the world is flat and wants to tell everyone about it. Just keep the library well run and organized. I do care very much if the 3rd grade science teacher is a hardcore flat-earther.

I would say that there is a lot of overlap. And at least in the US, a masters degree is required for most librarian positions (at least from what I remember, not sure if that's changed over the years).

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#336

Post by klyrs »

cs702 wrote: post #292
klyrs wrote: post #278

Earlier quoted context omitted.

McKinsey studies are rather suspect. Who paid them to do that research, and what was their agenda?

> Who paid them to do that research, and what was their agenda? It's on the second page, right after the cover page. The work was part of McKinsey's non-profit pro-bono work. Quoting: "The preparation of this report was co-funded by McKinsey and Proof Points, a non-profit organization designed to support state-level education reform. This work is part of the fulfillment of McKinsey’s social sector mission to help lea…

That's a bit of a non-answer. Who is Proof Points; what is their agenda? My google-fu isn't bringing up any information about that organization.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#337

Post by kube-system »

ticviking wrote: post #332
kube-system wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2/3 of private schools are religious. And many private schools were literally founded as a response to brown vs board. Parents are not choosing schools based on academic success alone. An extremely significant part of how parents choose schools is based on the social groups they want their kids associating with. 99% of the academic success of private schools is attributable to their ability to exclude poorly performi…

No they pay hundreds of thousands of dollars so they don't have to deal with the school refusing to take action on bullying or disruptive behavior. If schools are unwilling or unable to provide a stable learning environment then parents move on. There has been a lot of ink spilled on exactly why this is, including the racial and religious issues you allude to, but the brute fact is that in many communities families f…

It's the same thing, phrased two different ways. There's not some magical action any school administrator can take to make poorly raised kids behave. Especially in an understaffed school. You can make them leave the school, which removes the problem temporarily, but then what? Truancy is already a problem, expelling more kids is not going to fix the problem. The US already has one of the largest criminal underclasses on the planet. Fixing a classroom by ignoring tough situations just kicks the can down the road. Your kid will have a nice classroom experience, and when they graduate, they'll be robbed by the kid they didn't have to sit by.

IMO this entire problem was caused by segregating our schools to begin with. The problem of misbehaving kids isn't going to be fixed by giving them free vacation on the streets. They need to see with their own eyes that their behavior isn't acceptable, and that means putting them in environments where they are outsiders. Kids are a product of their social environment, full stop.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#338

Post by friend_and_foe »

yakireev wrote: post #331
friend_and_foe wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not. A teacher is supposed to teach. We want to pay them more because they keep saying that if we do they'll teach better. We don't owe them money simply because they exist.

> We want to pay them more because they keep saying that if we do they'll teach better. Given a choice, would you prefer the teacher of your kid paid 30k or 60k? I'd prefer the second option even if it would be the same person teaching, because do you really want your kids to be raised by people in dire financial situation? A prospect of smarter folks becoming teachers (or staying in the field if they're there alread…

I'm perfectly happy with a teacher making 60k provided that they're teaching my kid well. I'm not happy with giving them a raise if they're not, and "their lives could be easier so we should do it anyway" is not a compelling argument. In the rest of the professional world we have to earn our salaries.

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#339

Post by [deleted] »

yakireev wrote: post #331
friend_and_foe wrote: post #296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it's not. A teacher is supposed to teach. We want to pay them more because they keep saying that if we do they'll teach better. We don't owe them money simply because they exist.

> We want to pay them more because they keep saying that if we do they'll teach better. Given a choice, would you prefer the teacher of your kid paid 30k or 60k? I'd prefer the second option even if it would be the same person teaching, because do you really want your kids to be raised by people in dire financial situation? A prospect of smarter folks becoming teachers (or staying in the field if they're there alread…

[deleted]

Re: Sanders calls for minimum salary of $60000 for public school teachers

#340

Post by hammock »

elil17 wrote: post #200
mwint wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Companies (and governments) never raise wages to solve problems for employees. They raise wages to solve problems for themselves. Maybe that’s the stated reason, and maybe it’s used to drum up political support, but it’s never the real reason.

Sure, for companies. But the government is supposed to act in the interest of all citizens, including the citizens it employs.

The government is supposed to act according to its constitution, and the elected officials are supposed to represent their constituents
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